DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15175
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:50 am

LeftieBiker wrote:It would make sense to also solicit reports from those who have lost zero bars and have more than 90% or so SOH, in an effort to determine what if any climatic and other conditions these batteries find tolerable.
Agreed. One sided data is always misleading.


Another thing we need to add is 1 and 2 bar losers because we now have a handful that live in northern tier states with loss many miles before that should have happened including at least 2 in my area.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 14,342.8 mi, 93.16% SOH
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DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15175
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:54 am

VAB5 wrote:Lost my third bar today at 7,500 miles. 2016 SV, spent its first 5,000 miles in Arizona before I bought it and moved it to Virginia. Dropped its first bar the first time I charged it. So lost 3 bars in 2, 500 miles.

Image

Image

Likely a BMS reset and venture to guess it spent some time on the lot before being sold which leads me to believe the car lost most of a bar before being driven off the lot.

Well, you will finally know how the car really is when you get your replacement pack.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 14,342.8 mi, 93.16% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cwerdna
Posts: 11349
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:19 pm

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p521852 has a pointer to a 2017 Leaf S 1 bar down. From searching that guy's posts, he's somewhere in So Cal.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

BuckMkII
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:40 pm

VAB5 wrote:But it also netted some consideration from the seller, so net, if I get the battery replaced under warranty, I'll be happy. Either way, I'll have the car for a while.
*IF* you get the battery replaced? It seems certain that you will qualify for a replacement battery some time this year.

Unless you baby the replacement, you have a good chance of getting a second replacement battery later in the warranty period.
2013 SV no QC, built July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17: AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250
bar 12 lost 8/21/17
on 11/10/2020: AHr = 53.3; SOH = 81.5 %; Hx = 74.3; ODO = 63,987

Catflyer
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:15 pm
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:09 pm

We have some scientists who have been doing analysis on this potential issue in New Zealand. The Nissan Leafs here are imported either from Japan (the majority) or UK. The results are quite interesting and seem to point to increased loss in the 30 kWh batteries. The Flip The Fleet (the name of the group doing EV analysis in NZ) article can be found at http://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-leafs-soh-loss/ and their science report at https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1. The main graph showing results is Image

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:18 pm

The SOH really seems to fall off a cliff at about the one to one and a half year mark. It also looks like an accelerating process, as if maybe destructive waste products are accumulating in the cells, causing something like 'runaway degradation'. Do things like build date or geographic location play a significant roll, at least early in the plummet?

I really wish we knew whether this was going to happen with the 40kwh packs, to put it mildly.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

VAB5
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:16 am

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:43 am

BuckMkII wrote:
VAB5 wrote:But it also netted some consideration from the seller, so net, if I get the battery replaced under warranty, I'll be happy. Either way, I'll have the car for a while.
*IF* you get the battery replaced? It seems certain that you will qualify for a replacement battery some time this year.

Unless you baby the replacement, you have a good chance of getting a second replacement battery later in the warranty period.
Ugh--given that, I may bail for top dollar after the replacement!

joeriv
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:33 am

A great study!

After reading it I think there are two factors at play:

1. The battery chemistry is different.
2. The packaging for the cells was changed (not mentioned in the study).

I noticed on my 2017 Leaf that it takes longer to cool down than on my previous 2013. I have some experience with electronics cooling and the new packaging looks inherently less conducive to heat transfer than the previous packaging.

If the trends in the study are indicative of things to come, Nissan will be replacing lots of batteries and the 40 may show similar degradation. Nissan will have to make some mods to chemistry and/or packaging to avoid future expensive warranty claims.
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

WetEV
Posts: 4066
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:25 am

joeriv wrote:A great study!

After reading it I think there are two factors at play:

1. The battery chemistry is different.
2. The packaging for the cells was changed (not mentioned in the study).
I suggest a third factor to consider.

I think that there might be a problem in the charging and/or balancing algorithm(s). Maybe due to a change in the charger/BMS, maybe due the change in chemistry that requires a slightly different charging and/or balancing algorithm(s).

The study notes that loss goes down with higher mileage, which doesn't make sense for heat. The more you drive, the hotter the batteries, the faster the capacity loss.

Both this study and other things I've heard suggest that cars that are driven a lot are doing better.

joeriv wrote:If the trends in the study are indicative of things to come, Nissan will be replacing lots of batteries and the 40 may show similar degradation. Nissan will have to make some mods to chemistry and/or packaging to avoid future expensive warranty claims.
Yes, Nissan will be replacing a lot of batteries. Hopefully they will find and fix the issue, which might not be chemistry or packaging, but electronics/firmware.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

goldbrick
Posts: 1026
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
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Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:38 am

What a great study. I'd like to sign up but it appears they only want vehicles from NZ so they can manage the data by region.

It's great to see actual data even though the results don't bode well for the 30kWh cars. Hopefully Nissan will have a better solution when the time comes for my battery replacement. I'll never hit 100k miles on my car but unless it or I get totaled before 2025 I expect to still be driving it then.

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