Two Leafs; so we'll have one to drive while the other is in

Wow! the more I read about experiences with this car, the more skeptical I become, and I don't even have mine yet. Not to worry tho'; It's exciting to check my account each day just to see what they have to say. It's been known to "fluctuate", regarding expected delivery, etc. But----don't bank on it.

Here are several examples of what has me shaking my head:

1. Remaining charge indicator says 17 miles. After 6 miles, it suddenly goes into "turtle". After 3/4mi in "turtle", it just dies, but power won't shut off. He was in a major metropolitan area, but had to wait over an hour for roadside assistance. Dealer has car for a week now, but no indication of what (if anything?) is wrong.
2. Numerous owners have posted that the "remaining range" indicator is practically useless, because there are too many variables to reflect any real-world accuracy. And I thought my Prius fuel gauge was tempermental!
3. If you expect to keep up with freeway speeds (65-75mph), you should expect around 60-65 miles of range, unless it's really cold, or really hot, or you're driving in hilly country. Then, more like 50mi range.
4. Other "issues" I've noted on this forum from Leaf owners: Mysterious cracked windshield, "oozing sealer" from door post, Carwings won't work, car won't accept charge, mis-aligned body panels, mismatched paint between bumper and body.

There are many others; but I just don't have the time to research them all.

I'm going to try to stay up-to-date with problems with the Leaf. That way, we won't be so surprised when we finally take delivery and experience some "anomolies" of our own.

i think you will find that a micro inspection of ANY CAR will find the same issues. now we can get into "why cant i achieve EPA mileage" discussions but like, WHY?

do not think that the Leaf will work for everyone.
do think that there must be some effort on the driver's part to understand the Leaf and make it work for them.

if u "need" to drive 70-75 mph....dont buy it.

if u "need" to have more than 70 miles of range EVERY day despite only using that much range 1-3 times a month and do not have another car, then do not buy it.

if you "need" a guarantee of the perfect vehicle with an absolute gurantee of having no issues whatsover, then dont buy it (would really LOVE to hear what u do get!)

if you "need" to come here and tell us what we all already know, then that is fine. u have a right to speak, but dont except a whole lot of compassion here.

I would expect assembly to improve as the cars with issues are early production. The issues with the instruments are completely expected by those that have owned EVs before, and the SOC issue is beaten to death. I do think Nissan was not up front in how far down the car had to go to get the stated range but that was expected as well. I'd bee more concerned about future reported pack issues than some of the minor issues reported in a first-run production.

#1 seems to have been a fluke or a glitch. #2 seemed pretty accurate to me. I was out pushing the limits last night and got the low battery at 17, very low battery at 7 and turtle at 3.8. I then went about another mile to my house. I was also going slightly uphill to whole time. I haven't completely pushed it dead yet, but do intend to try soon. The rest, as Dave said, are common in any new car, particularly and brand new model. Don't stress. It's an awesome car and I absolutely love it!

I am one of those who are expecting high mileage, I have a RT 76 miles 5 days a week. But I plan to 100% charge and ECO mode keeping my speed in 62-65 mph. I am slightly hopeful my company will give me a 110 AC outlet but not from the start will have to get approved high up in Corporate to do it here. In AZ our freeway are real flat only slightly up and down on the over passes. I know I am pushing it and may have to drive some side streets for a few months. But it is going to be an adventure. :lol:

Dave-in-Oly, I really appreciate your posts; they are always pertinent, and more optimistic than mine. Maybe I'm just an old grouch, after all. :? I LOVE the concept of all-electric transportation, and am willing to help get it started.........

But--I can't help comparing my 2006 Prius record with what I've read so far about the Leaf:

1. Out-the-door price was ~$24K with rebate (included factory leather)
2. Logged 46k+ miles to date, avg 49.4mpg lifetime, including two 5k+ trips to/from San diego/upper midwest. Damn oil service truck in Wyoming cracked my windshield in 2010.
3. One trip to the dealer in 5yrs for inverter pump replacement (a factory recall--no charge)
4. Change my own oil/filters (15 minute job; costs $12 for parts)
5. Larger/roomier than the Leaf.
6. I drive SAN to PHX non-stop for about $25 (at today's fuel prices).

So, between now and (guess at date, last says may 2011), I'll make a decision on whether to accept my leaf, or go buy another new Prius V.

derkraut said:

I LOVE the concept of all-electric transportation, and am willing to help get it started.........

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I think that is the key, whether the motivation is climate change, air pollution, national security, or all of the above. Based just on cost of ownership I doubt that anyone could choose a Leaf over a Prius or even over a conventional ICE car.

But--I can't help comparing my 2006 Prius record with what I've read so far about the Leaf:

Click to expand...

2011 Leaf probably compares more closely with the 1997 Prius, but I think your point still stands. I do think (hope) that the early early adopters - 4/20 reservations - are surfacing most of the new car model problems which will be fixed by the time I take delivery.

So, between now and (guess at date, last says may 2011), I'll make a decision on whether to accept my leaf, or go buy another new Prius V.

Click to expand...

I think you make a much bigger difference by choosing a Prius over an Expedition SUV than you make choosing among a Prius, Leaf, and Volt. So a lot of it comes back to whether you want to, and are in a position to be part of the first wave of all-electric transportation.

derkraut said:

But--I can't help comparing my 2006 Prius record with what I've read so far about the Leaf:

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Being a V1, you should expect more problems in Leaf than in a production ICE or hybrid car. Still, I'd say atleast until now, we have seen fewer issues than I'd have expected.

Also, don't make the mistake of confusing one example (my experience with xyz) with the aggregate statistic. You can read priuschat for problematic Priuses for eg. and decide not to buy a Prius. Or read any car forum about any car.

If you expected 100% problem free vehicle for every one of the early owners, then, that obviously won't be met - by any manufacturer in any car.

ps : It is possible you are too risk averse for a V1 vehicle. Only you can figure that out.

derkraut said:

Dave-in-Oly, I really appreciate your posts; they are always pertinent, and more optimistic than mine. Maybe I'm just an old grouch, after all. :? I LOVE the concept of all-electric transportation, and am willing to help get it started.........

But--I can't help comparing my 2006 Prius record with what I've read so far about the Leaf:

1. Out-the-door price was ~$24K with rebate (included factory leather)
2. Logged 46k+ miles to date, avg 49.4mpg lifetime, including two 5k+ trips to/from San diego/upper midwest. Damn oil service truck in Wyoming cracked my windshield in 2010.
3. One trip to the dealer in 5yrs for inverter pump replacement (a factory recall--no charge)
4. Change my own oil/filters (15 minute job; costs $12 for parts)
5. Larger/roomier than the Leaf.
6. I drive SAN to PHX non-stop for about $25 (at today's fuel prices).

So, between now and (guess at date, last says may 2011), I'll make a decision on whether to accept my leaf, or go buy another new Prius V.

Click to expand...

hey the fact that you are even here to begin with says a lot. hey i know the Prius thing; have owned 3 of them (still have 2, wanna buy one?) and the Prius will be in my garage for a long time to come. but its only a start in where we need to go.

but we need people like you and us who can show how EVs can work. any ya, it will take some adjustment but things HAVE to change. transition will not be painless or without compromise but its not really an option any more.

for every Leaf on the road, there will be 100 that see it, 15 that ask about it and 1 or 2 that will buy it and you will be responsible for that. so its up to you to find out how it works for you and then give realistic information to someone else.

so ya, i am not going to say that i get 100 miles of range because i did it once. i am going to say i get 75 miles because that is what i can expect under less than ideal conditions and i have tested and done that without issues.

now, what will happen in 4 years when my batts have lost 10-15%? well, once again i will deal with that. i might have to transition some of those longer trips to the Prius and i am ok with that, because just the simple fact that i have another 4 years of EV driving under my belt would mean that another 100,000 people have been exposed to the option and a few dozen acutually went and got one because i showed them how it could work for them by demostrating how it worked for me

**edit** my out the door price on my 2010 Prius with priority discount and sales tax waiver was $28,564. if i were to buy out my lease right now my out the door price of my Leaf would be

$28,334


**edit** ok, last word... this time for sure.

drive the car for a week (it wont take you that long) that is all i have to say...just drive it for a week. u will be hooked. u will find a way to make it work

derkraut said:

Dave-in-Oly, I really appreciate your posts; they are always pertinent, and more optimistic than mine. Maybe I'm just an old grouch, after all. :? I LOVE the concept of all-electric transportation, and am willing to help get it started.........

But--I can't help comparing my 2006 Prius record with what I've read so far about the Leaf:

1. Out-the-door price was ~$24K with rebate (included factory leather)
2. Logged 46k+ miles to date, avg 49.4mpg lifetime, including two 5k+ trips to/from San diego/upper midwest. Damn oil service truck in Wyoming cracked my windshield in 2010.
3. One trip to the dealer in 5yrs for inverter pump replacement (a factory recall--no charge)
4. Change my own oil/filters (15 minute job; costs $12 for parts)
5. Larger/roomier than the Leaf.
6. I drive SAN to PHX non-stop for about $25 (at today's fuel prices).

So, between now and (guess at date, last says may 2011), I'll make a decision on whether to accept my leaf, or go buy another new Prius V.

Click to expand...

The comparison that matters:

Drive 50,000 miles in a Prius, burn 1,000 gallons of gas.

Drive a LEAF 50,00 miles, burn 0 gallons of gas.

Only substantive criticism I can make of the LEAF, is that they aren't making them fast enough.

If you do a straight dollars to dollars comparison of the Leaf to the Prius, I wouldn't doubt that the Prius comes out ahead - Its a nice car, and if I had to replace my "long Distance" car today, that's what I'd get.

In my case, buying the Leaf is a combination of betting on the price oil continuing move significantly up, wanting to make a personal commitment to cleaner energy, and wanting to participate in some cutting edge technology. So I don't expect that this will be my absolute lowest cost option, or that there won't be more problems with a version 1.0 Leaf vs the fully mature Prius.

charlie1300 said:

If you do a straight dollars to dollars comparison of the Leaf to the Prius, I wouldn't doubt that the Prius comes out ahead

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I'm not so sure. Assuming I can get the CA rebate, my net cost on the Leaf will be under $22K. With current world affairs only likely to accelerate the rate of increase of oil/gas prices, and with the lowered maintenance costs (we hope) of the Leaf, and that my intended use fits well within its limitations, I'm thinking the Leaf *will* end up net ahead of what a Prius or other hybrid (or other high MPG ICE commuter vehicle) would do.

Time will tell. But I'm willing to give 'er a go. Plus, the tech geek in my can't say no.

charlie1300 said:

If you do a straight dollars to dollars comparison of the Leaf to the Prius, I wouldn't doubt that the Prius comes out ahead - Its a nice car, and if I had to replace my "long Distance" car today, that's what I'd get.

Click to expand...

I own a 2005 Prius that has 60k miles on it. From a dollars and cents point of view, it clearly dominates the Leaf, even if you include the $12,500 rebates that I expect to receive for the Leaf. I paid $25K for my Prius (loaded with nav, etc). I regularly get 50mpg on it, though it drops slightly to 46mpg in the winter. My fuel cost works out to $0.07/mile. The expected cost for charging my Leaf will be $0.11/mile due to the nature of my electricity supplier and the configuration of my house. I will save about $100/year on maintenance cost for oil changes, but my estimate for the EVSE was $3K, and there is a looming cost for battery replacement after some number of years that will clearly end up making the Leaf cost more in the long run.

People buy cars for all sorts of different reasons. For many people on this list it's a political statement. For many of us it's an expensive technological toy. For some of us in California, it's a gambit to get HOV stickers for our commute. I don't think it's plausible to make the argument that a Leaf will save anyone money unless you have very favorable electric rates and you expect the cost of petroleum to rise steeply in the next few years.

Lol...save money? C'mon!! We can't go there.

Do u save money by sending your kid to community college instead of a university?

Do u save money by going to a clinic instead of your regular doctor?

It ain't about saving money. Its about saving our country, our home, and our childrens future.
We no longer have the option to ignore the problem and let the next generation deal with it.

Googler said:

charlie1300 said:

If you do a straight dollars to dollars comparison of the Leaf to the Prius, I wouldn't doubt that the Prius comes out ahead - Its a nice car, and if I had to replace my "long Distance" car today, that's what I'd get.

Click to expand...

I own a 2005 Prius that has 60k miles on it. From a dollars and cents point of view, it clearly dominates the Leaf, even if you include the $12,500 rebates that I expect to receive for the Leaf. I paid $25K for my Prius (loaded with nav, etc). I regularly get 50mpg on it, though it drops slightly to 46mpg in the winter. My fuel cost works out to $0.07/mile. The expected cost for charging my Leaf will be $0.11/mile due to the nature of my electricity supplier and the configuration of my house. I will save about $100/year on maintenance cost for oil changes, but my estimate for the EVSE was $3K, and there is a looming cost for battery replacement after some number of years that will clearly end up making the Leaf cost more in the long run.

People buy cars for all sorts of different reasons. For many people on this list it's a political statement. For many of us it's an expensive technological toy. For some of us in California, it's a gambit to get HOV stickers for our commute. I don't think it's plausible to make the argument that a Leaf will save anyone money unless you have very favorable electric rates and you expect the cost of petroleum to rise steeply in the next few years.

Click to expand...

Yes, I am a PG&E customer, and currently have access to the low off-peak charging rates (which most US car buyers will probably have in the near future) that give me fuel costs about one fifth those of a prius. And yes, I do expect gasoline cost increases to far outstrip those of electricity in the future. But the most often overlooked benefit I expect as a LEAF purchaser, is higher residual/resale value than any ICEV.

Eventually, the higher fuel and maintenance costs of ICEV's relative to BEV's will, I believe, be reflected in lower resale values. So, I expect my LEAF purchase (including the ITC/rebate benefits) will likely give me lower total ownership costs over the next decade, than any other new car I can buy today.

PS-

How/why do you pay 11 cents per mile, for electricity? Over 40 cents per kWh?

Googler wrote:

I don't think it's plausible to make the argument that a Leaf will save anyone money unless you have very favorable electric rates and you expect the cost of petroleum to rise steeply in the next few years.

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I am willing to bear the price for all of the reasons DaveinOlyWA lists. Perhaps Noam Chomsky of MIT may drive that point home further:http://www.commondreams.org/video/2011/02/10

Thus, if we are doing something very important to the planet and subsequent generations, then I would think everyone would be joining us. Because not everyone would spend the extra money, we have utilities that collect environmental money from their customers to subsidize for individuals the cost of PV systems. And the Federal government has helped by helping individuals afford PV systems with energy credits rather than just subsidizing big business.

For me, I will be charging the LEAF at no cost beyond my initial investment in our PV system. Which also means I'm tired of the naysayers argument that LEAF owners are just transferring their pollution to the electric utilities. If I just look at the electrical savings without the LEAF, our savings mean a yield of about 8% off the PV system. This is pretty well guaranteed and is a better yield than I could get from CDs.

When I look at the gasoline savings using the LEAF with no cost for recharging (remember the system is paying for itself by the above savings), I expect to save $26,250 over the life (150,000 mi.) of my current ICE. At that time I figure it will be time to buy something else. So looked at this way the LEAF will only be costing me about $10,000 (I don't believe I could buy any car for $10,000 eight years hence) while doing something good for the planet.

This is a long way of explaining why I would change Googles "save anyone money" to perhaps "saving many people money" and I that case my hat is off to them for unselfishly trying to help the planet for all the reasons that this blog has covered so well. Thus, for at least some people like myself, I believe we will save money while doing some good.

edatoakrun said:

The comparison that matters:

Drive 50,000 miles in a Prius, burn 1,000 gallons of gas.

Drive a LEAF 50,00 miles, burn 0 gallons of gas.

Click to expand...

I think the point of the discussion is that different things matter to different people. Clearly the social goal is more important to you than the personal financial calculation, but we should recognize that the decision to purchase a vehicle is a process of weighing different factors. We all want electric vehicles to become mainstream, but a lot of the population will only buy into them if they become economically competitive. The preponderance of evidence suggests that they have not yet reached that point, but they're getting close. Social policies like a carbon tax could go a long ways to change the economic equation, but that seems unlikely in the current political climate.

I'm less concerned about the minor glitches in design, because those will be worked out through refinement in the years to come. Early adopters of a technology always end up paying a price for minor design faults. The one that annoys me the most is the fact that the Leaf has such poor aerodynamics. That decision was probably made to accomodate a more mainstream style. The Prius has frequently been described as ugly because of its low drag coefficient.

Googler said:

edatoakrun said:

The comparison that matters:

Drive 50,000 miles in a Prius, burn 1,000 gallons of gas.

Drive a LEAF 50,00 miles, burn 0 gallons of gas.

Click to expand...

I think the point of the discussion is that different things matter to different people. Clearly the social goal is more important to you than the personal financial calculation...

Click to expand...

Avoiding gasoline and diesel as vehicle fuels has many benefits.

They are very expensive, and highly polluting.

They are inefficient in terms of energy conversion, when burned in an ICEV.

Competition for the crude oil feedstock is the primary cause of conflict worldwide. This is expensive for us all, and deadly to many.

Over the last 35 years, a large proportion of America's "defence" expenditures have been incurred, and major military actions carried out by the US have been largely caused, directly or indirectly, by our need to secure imported oil for vehicle fuels.

edatoakrun said:

Over the last 35 years, a large proportion of America's "defence" expenditures have been incurred, and major military actions carried out by the US have been largely caused, directly or indirectly, by our need to secure imported oil for vehicle fuels.

Click to expand...

And/or to protect the profit margins of the individuals and corporations that profit from the oil.
:evil:

What about some conspiracy also ?? hugh ??

Could it be possible that some of this forum's users are oil company agents, trying to scare us and lift some suspicious ???

If yes, let me say this: "You will only make us become more passionate :!: "

:lol: