coulomb
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:08 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Mar 2015
Leaf Number: 200445
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Leaf needed to Jumpstart frequently

Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:43 pm

I don't believe that the lower internal resistance would materially affect charge rate. I think that the dramatic difference in charge time reflects the AGM's low self discharge rate. In other vehicles, relatively high self discharge in non-AGM batteries would be hidden by adequate recharging.

But I'm certainly willing to listen to other theories.
2012 Leaf with new battery May 2019. New to me June 2019.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5442
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Leaf needed to Jumpstart frequently

Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:08 am

coulomb wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:43 pm
I don't believe that the lower internal resistance would materially affect charge rate. I think that the dramatic difference in charge time reflects the AGM's low self discharge rate. In other vehicles, relatively high self discharge in non-AGM batteries would be hidden by adequate recharging.

But I'm certainly willing to listen to other theories.
Well my theory would be that with a liquid electrolyte part of the charging process is limited by diffusion rates. In an AGM the concentrated electrolyte is held in a thin glass mat in direct contact with the plates. I think the concentration and thinness of the AGM electrolyte would account for the lower resistance and more effective diffusion especially at lower SOC% where a flooded battery's electrolyte gets pretty weak. And unlike a Lithium battery, lead-acid charge involves chemical reaction. And chemical reaction speed is dependent on the concentration of the reactants. More concentrated H2SO4 in the AGM. Lol, I'll see if I can find anything to back that up :P
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Leaf needed to Jumpstart frequently

Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:21 am

My 2011 and 2015 were frequently parked unplugged at 50% to 70% SOC for up to 4 weeks at a time without incident (except once when I left Bluetooth adapter plugged in to OBDII port and Android device running LEAF Spy on the seat--12V battery in 2011 was dead when I returned after only 6 days). Also 2015 drained 12-volt
battery while parked over weekend when early 3G TCU locked up (issue was permanently resolved when dealer replaced TCU with later version). Longest so far for 2019 has been 2 weeks at the airport. I have never connected an external 12-vo!t charger to any of my LEAFs (DC-DC converter in each Leaf keeps or kept the 12-volt battery charged with my driving/charging/parking use patterns). I jump-started the cars on the rare occasions when I returned to dead battery and let DC-DC converter charge battery while driving and charging.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL+ purchased 8/10/2019

gncndad
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:02 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Feb 2016
Location: Ft. Worth, TX

Re: Leaf needed to Jumpstart frequently

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:05 am

GerryAZ wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:21 am
My 2011 and 2015 were frequently parked unplugged at 50% to 70% SOC for up to 4 weeks at a time without incident (except once when I left Bluetooth adapter plugged in to OBDII port and Android device running LEAF Spy on the seat--12V battery in 2011 was dead when I returned after only 6 days). Also 2015 drained 12-volt
battery while parked over weekend when early 3G TCU locked up (issue was permanently resolved when dealer replaced TCU with later version). Longest so far for 2019 has been 2 weeks at the airport. I have never connected an external 12-vo!t charger to any of my LEAFs (DC-DC converter in each Leaf keeps or kept the 12-volt battery charged with my driving/charging/parking use patterns). I jump-started the cars on the rare occasions when I returned to dead battery and let DC-DC converter charge battery while driving and charging.
This is a bit confusing. Are the "rare occasions when I returned to dead battery" incidents the ones referenced above? I guess you're saying the "rare occasions" of dead battery didn't ruin the battery?

Our 2013 Ford CMax (96k miles) is about to have it's 4th battery replacement, as the 3rd OEM Ford replacement battery lasted 21 months. Full warranty replacement, but a royal PIA because of the inconvenience. I just purchased a $100 Schumacher "Power Pack" lithium jump starter, and will keep it in the car. Ridiculous that Ford has yet to figure out how to prevent random parasitic drain in their CMax/Fusion hybrids.

We've NEVER had an issue (of any kind!!!) with our 2014 Toyota Avalon Hybrid, now at 101k miles. Still love the car, a solid 41mpg on the highway, although the squooshy (is that a word?) ride can get a little annoying (I spent 35 years driving VW/Audis...haha)

Thanks all for the interesting thread. I always learn something here. :D
2015 LeafS
2013 Ford Cmax
2014 Toyota Avalon Hybrid Limited
2017 Ford Fusion Hybrid Energi

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13419
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Leaf needed to Jumpstart frequently

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:39 am

I just purchased a $100 Schumacher "Power Pack" lithium jump starter, and will keep it in the car.

I have something similar. I suggest you leave it at 75-80% charge, and don't let it get really hot.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2289
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Leaf needed to Jumpstart frequently

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:59 pm

gncndad wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:05 am
GerryAZ wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:21 am
My 2011 and 2015 were frequently parked unplugged at 50% to 70% SOC for up to 4 weeks at a time without incident (except once when I left Bluetooth adapter plugged in to OBDII port and Android device running LEAF Spy on the seat--12V battery in 2011 was dead when I returned after only 6 days). Also 2015 drained 12-volt
battery while parked over weekend when early 3G TCU locked up (issue was permanently resolved when dealer replaced TCU with later version). Longest so far for 2019 has been 2 weeks at the airport. I have never connected an external 12-vo!t charger to any of my LEAFs (DC-DC converter in each Leaf keeps or kept the 12-volt battery charged with my driving/charging/parking use patterns). I jump-started the cars on the rare occasions when I returned to dead battery and let DC-DC converter charge battery while driving and charging.
This is a bit confusing. Are the "rare occasions when I returned to dead battery" incidents the ones referenced above? I guess you're saying the "rare occasions" of dead battery didn't ruin the battery?

Our 2013 Ford CMax (96k miles) is about to have it's 4th battery replacement, as the 3rd OEM Ford replacement battery lasted 21 months. Full warranty replacement, but a royal PIA because of the inconvenience. I just purchased a $100 Schumacher "Power Pack" lithium jump starter, and will keep it in the car. Ridiculous that Ford has yet to figure out how to prevent random parasitic drain in their CMax/Fusion hybrids.

We've NEVER had an issue (of any kind!!!) with our 2014 Toyota Avalon Hybrid, now at 101k miles. Still love the car, a solid 41mpg on the highway, although the squooshy (is that a word?) ride can get a little annoying (I spent 35 years driving VW/Audis...haha)

Thanks all for the interesting thread. I always learn something here. :D
I am sure the "rare occaisions" took a toll on the OEM flooded cell battery in each car, but they still survived longer than most OEM batteries in my climate (likely due to much lower temperatures under the hood). The 2011 was only discharged once while the 2015 was discharged 2 or 3 times before the OEM battery failed. I am prepared to replace the OEM battery in the 2019 with an AGM deep cycle battery (probably a Yellow-Top Optima) as soon as I become aware of weakness.

I also keep a compact lithium ion booster pack in the car just in case I forget to unplug the Bluetooth adapter from the OBDII port when I park for extended time (I consider it insurance--won't need it if I have it, but will need it if I don't carry it).
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL+ purchased 8/10/2019

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14204
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf needed to Jumpstart frequently

Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:39 am

gncndad wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:05 am
GerryAZ wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:21 am
My 2011 and 2015 were frequently parked unplugged at 50% to 70% SOC for up to 4 weeks at a time without incident (except once when I left Bluetooth adapter plugged in to OBDII port and Android device running LEAF Spy on the seat--12V battery in 2011 was dead when I returned after only 6 days). Also 2015 drained 12-volt
battery while parked over weekend when early 3G TCU locked up (issue was permanently resolved when dealer replaced TCU with later version). Longest so far for 2019 has been 2 weeks at the airport. I have never connected an external 12-vo!t charger to any of my LEAFs (DC-DC converter in each Leaf keeps or kept the 12-volt battery charged with my driving/charging/parking use patterns). I jump-started the cars on the rare occasions when I returned to dead battery and let DC-DC converter charge battery while driving and charging.
This is a bit confusing. Are the "rare occasions when I returned to dead battery" incidents the ones referenced above? I guess you're saying the "rare occasions" of dead battery didn't ruin the battery?

Our 2013 Ford CMax (96k miles) is about to have it's 4th battery replacement, as the 3rd OEM Ford replacement battery lasted 21 months. Full warranty replacement, but a royal PIA because of the inconvenience. I just purchased a $100 Schumacher "Power Pack" lithium jump starter, and will keep it in the car. Ridiculous that Ford has yet to figure out how to prevent random parasitic drain in their CMax/Fusion hybrids.

We've NEVER had an issue (of any kind!!!) with our 2014 Toyota Avalon Hybrid, now at 101k miles. Still love the car, a solid 41mpg on the highway, although the squooshy (is that a word?) ride can get a little annoying (I spent 35 years driving VW/Audis...haha)

Thanks all for the interesting thread. I always learn something here. :D
single incidences aren't enough to kill a battery. Yes, it took a hit and a big one at that but you have to do it a half dozen times or so. I have had batteries in the long past that went very low only 2-3 times and they failed to hold a charge when the weather turned. Others went 4-5 times and survived the Winter.

But in any of those cases, the one thing that stands is bringing Lead acid down does do permanent loss.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13419
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Leaf needed to Jumpstart frequently

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:15 pm

But in any of those cases, the one thing that stands is bringing Lead acid down does do permanent loss.

Yes. The battery may seem fine afterward, but it will have lost substantial capacity. Going down to near dead, but not quite, can cause less damage. My 2013 did that when about a year old: the lights were dim and the auto door locks wouldn't work, but the battery wasn't dead, and it was still working fine (with occasional trickle charges) when I turned the car in at 5 years old.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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