MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:46 pm

Update on the 2013 with bad cell at#44. I took it in a month ago, May 20, and they saw two codes, one for the battery and one for the water pump. They said Nissan advises replace the water pump first for $880, which after some quick checking I said go ahead--even though the pump is easy to change and a few hundred bucks on line. I thought let them get on with the process and we will get to the battery soon enough. They then cleared the codes, and I drove it home. The EV warning light and turtle came on two days later, after about 12 miles actual driving. With covid and other stuff it was until two weeks before I got it back there. They saw the P33E6 code, and their paperwork includes that code, but for some reason wanted to replace the BMS in the pack for $1600.

Call to Nissan EV line made. I have talked to the nice people there several times, and the dealership too. As of yesterday, they have confirmed to me repeatedly that they will not cover this under the 8 years materials and workmanship, which is very weird. If it is the cell or the BMS, it is still the battery, and the warranty on materials and workmanship would apply. They are working on getting some dollar relief on the $1600 BMS replacement, but based on the rest of the conversations with them I am not hopeful.
Last edited by MikeinPA on Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

MikeinPA
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Location: SE Pennsylvania

Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:44 pm

Further update. Today I charged the car to 100% (something I very rarely do, see note below)(at this point I am ready to try anything), let it finish, and looked at the cell balance--flat bar graph as expected, 20 mv difference--nothing new here, the imbalance shows up around 50% SOC. Verified that EV warning and turtle symbols are present. Then I left it parked but in ready-to-drive mode and checked it every hour to see if it somehow could stay balanced as it slowly discharged despite the tiny shunt resistors. After ~4 hours it is down to 90% on Leaf Spy--this is right after the comment I left above. I am checking the bar graph on LS, not looking at the dashboard. Imagine my surprise when I do look at the dash and both the EV warning symbol and the turtle are gone. I drove it gently for 15 miles and no symbols and no imbalance yet (20 mv). I am surprised to see it removed those symbols on its own. I don’t think cell #44 is miraculously healed, but I am curious if anyone has insight into why the dash warnings would clear up. Also I still do not have a working OBD device for Leaf Spy Pro--a new BAFX dongle did not connect. Any suggestions? Phone is a Pixel 3xl.

Note: I keep the SOC centered around 50% on the white 2013 because I don't really need the range and there are papers out there showing aging really slows for this chemistry at low SOC and cooler temps. I can still get 80 miles range easily with this car, and in fact had nearly 90 miles range last year on the turnpike, and that is plenty for us. We rent vehicles for long trips. I have been doing the same for the blue one and that may have been worsening the imbalance--nay, almost certainly has.

After 100% charge: https://imgshare.io/images/2020/06/21/S ... 130859.png
Last edited by MikeinPA on Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

LeftieBiker
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:11 pm

Maybe this one is a BMS issue, although I wouldn't trust the dealership on that. Maybe the BMS is falsely reporting one or more dangerously low voltages for one or more cells, triggering the warnings.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:57 am

Yes, something flaky in the BMS would fit the symptoms. This agrees with what the dealer ship said a month ago, that quote "Nissan wants us to open the pack and read the cell voltages". That statement made no sense to me at the time.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:35 pm

Leftie, starting to look like the BMS is confused.

This morning turned car on and EV warning light and turtle are back. Drove it 7 miles locally on flat, 30 mph roads, parked for 3 hours in the ready to drive state, still turtle at end of this. Power off and back on, EV warning light and turtle are gone. Pack is at 69% SOC, min/avg/max 3.977/4.003/4.010, cell #44 at 3.987, cells #91 and 92 at 3.977 and 3.983 respectively.

Isn't 4.00 volts per cell high for a resting 1/3 discharged Leaf AESC cell? I will check the other car.

Also, what is the best way to put images up here?

Image

https://imgshare.io/image/N5iZNO

https://imgshare.io/images/2020/06/21/S ... 155403.png

Image
Last edited by MikeinPA on Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:28 pm, edited 10 times in total.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

LeftieBiker
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:44 pm

Link the images using the url of the image at the hosting site and the "IMAGE" option in the posting window here.

I guess it's down to two possibilities: bad BMS or bad cells. And as I've said, I don't think we've ever seen bad cells manifested by higher voltages... How about it folks? I just woke up, and my brain is mushier than oatmeal. Is this the first time we've seen this? If the BMS is glitchy "locally" rather than "globally" would that manifest like this?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Lothsahn
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Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:12 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:44 pm
Link the images using the url of the image at the hosting site and the "IMAGE" option in the posting window here.

I guess it's down to two possibilities: bad BMS or bad cells. And as I've said, I don't think we've ever seen bad cells manifested by higher voltages... How about it folks? I just woke up, and my brain is mushier than oatmeal. Is this the first time we've seen this? If the BMS is glitchy "locally" rather than "globally" would that manifest like this?
Don't open the battery yourself. That will void the warranty.

I just checked my 2011 Leaf (with a 2015 pack and 2015 BMS). At 72% SOC, I'm showing the average voltage to be 4.021V, minimum 4.017 and maximum 4.026 (9mv min/max). I do not believe your cells are overcharged.

It's crazy that they won't cover this under warranty. This is clearly a failure of the lithium ion battery. Do you have to call the EV help line for coverage info? Can you just work through the dealership? Is the dealership referring you to the EV help line for something?

Hey Nissan: This is why Tesla is eating you alive. They've built plenty of faulty stuff, but they back it up and fix the issues.

I would get a video of the behavior of your car when it goes into turtle suddenly. I would take a copy of the video into the dealership along with a printed copy of the warranty booklet, and tell them this is a safety issue resulting from a faulty battery. If they refuse, I would ask which specific criteria excludes this from being a warranty issue. Get everything in writing.

I would then take the car to another dealership in your area with a good reputation. See if they can somehow get something done. If not, I would get the rejection in writing from them as well. It's really absurd--I've seen a number of people post on the forums with problems and symptoms very similar to yours, and they got the battery repaired in days.

If you get rejected at all dealerships, you have three options:
1) Sue Nissan
2) Sell the car
3) Repair or replace the battery pack yourself. You could buy a new pack from Nissan for $5500, or replace it with a different pack from a junkyard, or replace the cell. Doing this will void the warranty.

I've seen a post from a guy who went through similar conditions to you. It was hellish, and he did end up suing. He came back to post that the issue was "resolved" and he was "happy with the outcome" and would have "nothing more to add". (i.e. he settled and got what he was looking for).


From: https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf
LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE
The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. This warranty covers any repairs needed to correct defects in materials or workmanship subject to the exclusions listed under the heading WHATISNOTCOVERED. This warranty period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first.

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above120F (49C) for over 24 hours.
Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13F (-25C)for over seven days.
Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the lithium-ion battery reaches a zero or near zero state of charge.
Physically damaging the lithium-ion battery or intentionally attempting to reduce the life of the lithium-ion battery.
Exposing the lithium-ion battery to contact with a direct flame.
Immersing any portion of the lithium-ion battery in water or fluids.
Opening the lithium-ion battery enclosure or having it serviced by someone other than a Nissan LEAF certified technician.
Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures. Use of incompatible charging devices. Consequential damage caused by the failure to re-pair an existing problem.

GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty beyond the terms and limits specified in the LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE above. See your OWNER’S MANUAL for important tips on how to maximize the life and capacity of the “Lithium-ion battery.”
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
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Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

LeftieBiker
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:24 pm

They are splitting hairs by saying that the BMS isn't part of the "battery." Technically, it isn't (my Vectrix has no BMS, despite using Leaf modules), but it is contained within the battery shell. This definitely isn't one to try at home with no similar experience, but anyone who has done a battery module swap (not "just" a pack swap) with a Leaf should be able to handle it.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Lothsahn
Posts: 657
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:01 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:24 pm
They are splitting hairs by saying that the BMS isn't part of the "battery." Technically, it isn't (my Vectrix has no BMS, despite using Leaf modules), but it is contained within the battery shell. This definitely isn't one to try at home with no similar experience, but anyone who has done a battery module swap (not "just" a pack swap) with a Leaf should be able to handle it.
Ah. I see. The lithium ion battery coverage doesn't enumerate the components covered. However, the BMS is not listed under the drivetrain or EV system. So if they wanted to say it wasn't part of the battery, given it's inside the pack and replaced as part of a new battery, I would ask what other system it's covered under, and challenge any attempts to categorize it as such since it's not enumerated. Just my 2c.

Personally, I feel, unless clarified somewhere I missed, that the BMS is definitely part of the lithium ion battery pack.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

LeftieBiker
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:39 pm

It would be covered under the EV drivetrain warranty, I guess. That expired after 5 years....?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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