MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:49 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:40 pm
'Battery Components' can mean the cells and the cells alone,
Yes, perhaps they could choose to vary the definition of "battery components" in the 5-year capacity warranty, that is besides the point, the point is that through the language in their warranty, they have completely described and labeled the Venn diagram of what the Lithium-Ion Battery is and where the components go inside that. It is the definition of Lithium-Ion Battery that matters with respect to the 8-year warranty.

So far, the people at the EV help line are declining to provide warranty repair for parts inside the battery under 8-year warranty for materials and workmanship. I have asked for written documentation for this, waiting on that. The implication is that they have decided that the LBC is not contained within their definition of the Lithium-Ion Battery, but that view cannot be reconciled with the Venn diagram put forth absolutely in their own warranty descriptions. The 8-year warranty applies to the Lithium-Ion Battery, and their warranty language repeatedly defines the Lithium-Ion Battery as the superset within which components reside. There are no alternative Venn diagrams consistent with their language that I can see.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

LeftieBiker
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:08 pm

Unfortunately, Venn diagrams are not universally accepted as evidence in court cases. Courts tend to be more literal-minded when considering language. Again, I'm not taking Nissan's side or trying to shoot you down. I'm preparing you for what Nissan will claim.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:17 pm

Well, I am not going to court, I am going to work through the process laid out by Nissan.

Re the Venn diagram, that is one way to describe a rigorous analysis of the warranty language provided by Nissan. I do believe rigorous analysis of warranty language will be welcomed by everyone, especially if it includes helpful images. We are all well-meaning people in this. The Nissan EV technology in the car was relatively new in 2013, and is obviously still evolving today. My take is that this is a rare or very rare fault, that no one currently in the loop has had experience with it, and we are all patiently working towards a mutually agreeable outcome, and I am very grateful to lean on the expertise around here :D . Covid 19 has made things generally odd as well. I have been driving Nissan vehicles since my first three Datsun 510s and I trust the quality of the engineering--that is why I currently have two of them in my driveway.

I appreciate that my previous explanation of what the 2013 Leaf Warranty is saying could be more clear, so here is a simpler version working directly with quoted line verbatim from page 7 and page 8 of the 2013 Leaf Warranty. Quoted line and words are in italics.

Quote 1 from the LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE on page 8: If possible, the Lithium-Ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original Lithium-Ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. What this defines is two things: first, the Lithium-Ion battery is a single item, original to the vehicle, which is removed and replaced from/to the vehicle; second, Lithium-Ion battery components are more than one items that are components of the Lithium-Ion battery. Corollary, since the Lithium-Ion battery is a single item removed from the vehicle, and repairs are made to that prior to return to the vehicle, then Lithium-Ion battery components are contained by (are a sub set of) the Lithium-Ion battery, and the Lithium-Ion battery must be the whole unit including the components inside. The language does not actually specify that the components are inside the shell, but there is no other rational options for where those components could be. If anyone can convincingly parse this warranty language otherwise, love to hear. From my viewpoint, the warranty has clearly defined the single battery and the multiple components.

Quote 2 from the LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE on page 7: LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE The Lithium-Ion coverage period is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Above it was established that the Lithium-Ion battery must be the whole unit including the components inside. Again, if there is any real world way to re arrange the known elements of the battery and the known language of the warranty, please do so. So the LITHIUM–ION BATTERY COVERAGE 8 year warranty applies to the battery.

What the warranty does is provide an internally and externally consistent definition for the battery and its components. It also provides an 8 year warranty for the battery. There is additional consistent supporting language and reasoning in these two warranty sections for those definitions (which I wont go into unless asked because I think I have used up all my MNL ink for awhile), and there are zero (that I can see) alternative explanations.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

GerryAZ
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:40 pm

Mike,

I fully agree with your interpretation or description of the warranty and am watching your experience carefully. Another consideration if you are forced to take Nissan to arbitration: The Magnuson-Moss Act (1975 law) has some language that allows for owners or independent shops to make repairs without voiding warranties. If you cannot open the battery case without voiding the warranty and you need to replace a part inside that case, then how can an owner or independent shop replace that part which Nissan is considering to be not under warranty.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

MikeinPA
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Re: Weak cell #44 in 2013 Leaf--where in pack?

Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:35 am

Gerry,

Thanks for that. And also thanks to this forum, it is a terrific resource.
GerryAZ wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:40 pm
If you cannot open the battery case without voiding the warranty and you need to replace a part inside that case, then how can an owner or independent shop replace that part which Nissan is considering to be not under warranty.
Yes, one more consistency. Here is another, if there were some components warrantied for 8-years, and some not, then there would be a list of components they do warranty for 8-years, just like they have specified in complete detail for all the other warrantied items on the vehicle, and that list would be in the 2013 warranty booklet. It is not, or I am sure someone would have pointed it out to me by now. There are more consistencies, and zero inconsistencies that I can see.

Got vid this morning of the P33E6 behavior. Turn car on, EV warning light, turtle, and audio "motor power is being limited". Turn off, wait 8 seconds, turn on, still turtle etc. Turn off, wait 8 seconds, turn on, still turtle etc. Turn off, wait 10 seconds, turn on, dashboard warning lights and audio are gone. Turn off, wait 10 seconds, turn on, dashboard warning lights and audio are still gone. Will try to make a YouTube account when I find the time. Car is just sitting now, driven 131 miles since picking it up at the dealer with the P33E6 diagnosis on June 11, some local driving until the EV warning light re-appeared, and some diagnostic miles.
2013 Pearl White SV man 09/13 58k ser no 418089 purchased new 12/13
2013 Ocean Blue SV man 07/13 18k ser no 413361 purchased used 12/19

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