Nissan: restart problems reported in Leaf electric cars

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/11/nissan-leaf-idUSL3E7FB0BC20110411

* Problem traced to air-conditioning unit

* Nissan looking into exact cause - spokesman

* No recall planned as issue does not affect safety -Nissan

* Owners reported problem in U.S., Japan

* Shares down 2.2 pct on broad fall in auto stocks (Adds details, background)

TOKYO, April 11 (Reuters) - Nissan Motor Co has received complaints from owners that its Leaf electric car on occasion fails to start, posing a potential setback for the automaker's goal of promoting zero-emission vehicles.

Japan's No.2 automaker said on Monday it was looking into the exact cause, which it traced back to the Leaf's air-conditioning unit. Nissan is investigating whether the glitch was in a certain component or the programming, spokesman Toshitake Inoshita said.

Nissan plans no recall for now since the issue does not affect safety, but will decide how to proceed after identifying the source of the problem, he said.

"When we know the exact cause, we will decide whether to issue a service bulletin, or take other steps," Inoshita said.

He added that the phenomenon was reported in both the United States and Japan, although he did not have an exact figure for the number of complaints.

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Here is the long thread about this : http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3139

Production at Nissan's Oppama plant south of Tokyo, where the Leaf is made, resumed on Monday on a normal basis -- from supplier-delivered parts -- for the first time in a month, after it was halted by a devastating earthquake that rocked northeast Japan on March 11.

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That's good news to read.

I suppose it had to go mainstream news sooner or later. Let's just hope this doesn't unfairly taint public opinion of EVs.

The fact that Nissan is saying that it is not a safety issue reeks of BS though... That may come back to bite them on the ass ala Toyota!

GeekEV said:

I suppose it had to go mainstream news sooner or later. Let's just hope this doesn't unfairly taint public opinion of EVs.

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We need information from those who have experienced the problem. What does Nissan do to help them?

mogur said:

The fact that Nissan is saying that it is not a safety issue reeks of BS though... That may come back to bite them on the ass ala Toyota!

GeekEV said:

I suppose it had to go mainstream news sooner or later. Let's just hope this doesn't unfairly taint public opinion of EVs.

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Why do you think it is a safety issue?

Desertstraw said:

We need information from those who have experienced the problem. What does Nissan do to help them?

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You haven't read the 55 page thread about it ?

evnow said:

Desertstraw said:

We need information from those who have experienced the problem. What does Nissan do to help them?

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You haven't read the 55 page thread about it ?

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LeafWiki has a pretty good summary of the issue
http://nissanleafwiki.com/index.php?title=Warning_lights_leading_to_LEAF_that_won%27t_run

Scenario: The light comes on while driving. You stop at a light and decide to reboot the car to see if it will go away (you haven't read this forum to understand the consequences of that). The car is then completely dead and stuck in the middle of a now-busy road. Joe Blow doesn't see that you are stopped in traffic that is now moving and rear ends you.

Anything that can make any car stall and not restart in unexpected ways is a safety issue in my book.

jamesanne said:

mogur said:

The fact that Nissan is saying that it is not a safety issue reeks of BS though... That may come back to bite them on the ass ala Toyota!

GeekEV said:

I suppose it had to go mainstream news sooner or later. Let's just hope this doesn't unfairly taint public opinion of EVs.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Why do you think it is a safety issue?

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mogur said:

Scenario: The light comes on while driving. You stop at a light and decide to reboot the car to see if it will go away (you haven't read this forum to understand the consequences of that). The car is then completely dead and stuck in the middle of a now-busy road. Joe Blow doesn't see that you are stopped in traffic that is now moving and rear ends you.

Anything that can make any car stall and not restart in unexpected ways is a safety issue in my book.

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Reboot? Forget this forum, let's consult the owner's manual...
From page 2-16 EV system warning light
This light illuminates if there is a malfunction in the following systems. Contact a Nissan certified LEAF dealer. Traction motor, and inverter system, Charge port or on board charger, Li-ion battery system, Cooling system, Shift control system, Emergency shot off system is activated. See "emergency shot-off system" in the EV Overview" section.

I don't see anything about "rebooting" the car in a lane of traffic on a heavily traveled road that Joe Blow can crash into you on as the result of actions you took, not covered in the owner's manual. A reasonable person would pull off the road and evaluate what is occurring, consult available documentation (owner's manual), and possible use the included roadside assistance.
From page 6-4 Stopping the vehicle
1. Safely move the vehicle off the road and away from traffic...

I agree with mogur - Nissan is taking a lawyer's view on what is a safety issue. It's true, the car doesn't blowup, catch on fire, the wheels don't fall of while driving, but the driver's person can be in danger if the car fails to restart unexpectedly. There are many other senarios beside the one mogur mentioned, but they all revolve around one point - there is a known problem where the Leaf will not restart, the symptoms of that problem are recognizable so the informed driver can take action to protect themselves from being stranded in a dangerous position, yet the drivers have not been informed. Shame on Nissan for not caring enough about their customers enough to inform them. All they seem to care about making the argument that a recall is not necessary. Nobody asked for a recall, they asked that all owners be given information that would allow them to evaluate their risk and make better decissions.

This story was broadcast on CNBC a few minutes ago:

"Nissan has a problem. A potentially very big problem with its brand new, highly-touted, and all electric LEAF. Seems the car that could revolutionize the auto business is having trouble starting in certain situations.

Today, Nissan publicly acknowledged some electric LEAF's have a problem with re-starting after the car has been running.

Nissan issued a statement saying, "This is not a safety issue as the vehicle will not stop running while being driven but may not restart after being turned off." According to Nissan the issue stems from a problem with a sensor in the air conditioning unit, adding, "If this sensor is activated it will illuminate a warning light on the instrument panel and may cause the vehicle to not restart once it has been turned off. We are actively investigating to determine the root cause and what action is necessary to address the issue." So far, Nissan won't say how many LEAF owners have reported this problem, but it has happened in both the U.S. and Japan.

How big of a problem is this for Nissan? If the Japanese automaker can find the glitch and correct it in models being built, the issue will fade rather quickly. The bigger problem for Nissan is in public relations and public perception. The longer this story festers the more it will re-enforce the idea that you can't trust electric cars. Trust me, there are more than a few people out there who think anyone buying an electric car is making a foolish decision that will backfire when the car eventually short circuits, won't start, etc.

Already the message boards on the web have comments from people claiming they've had problems with their Nissan LEAF. On MyNissanLEAF.com some of the posts include this one from GEEKev, "I suppose it had to go mainstream news sooner or later. Let's just hope this doesn't unfairly taint public opinion of EV." Another person posted, "The fact that Nissan is saying that it is not a safety issue reeks of BS though... That may come back to bite them on the a** ala Toyota!." Meanwhile on nissanleafwiki.com there's plenty of possibilities about how many LEAF models may be effected, if Nissan has a plan to fix the cars, and a list of 16 different incidents since late March where people reported problems with their LEAF.

Nissan has already sold out of its initial 20,000 LEAF's that will be built this year. A sizable number of those headed to the U.S. Out of the gate, production was slow and it's been hampered even more by the devastation caused to the Japanese auto industry by last month's earthquake and tsunami. To have new questions raised about a car not being able to start up will only further hamper the roll out of a car that is critical to Nissan's plan to establish itself as a leader in electric cars. "

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42535885

charlie1300 said:

I agree with mogur - Nissan is taking a lawyer's view on what is a safety issue. It's true, the car doesn't blowup, catch on fire, the wheels don't fall of while driving, but the driver's person can be in danger if the car fails to restart unexpectedly. There are many other senarios beside the one mogur mentioned, but they all revolve around one point - there is a known problem where the Leaf will not restart, the symptoms of that problem are recognizable so the informed driver can take action to protect themselves from being stranded in a dangerous position, yet the drivers have not been informed. Shame on Nissan for not caring enough about their customers enough to inform them. All they seem to care about making the argument that a recall is not necessary. Nobody asked for a recall, they asked that all owners be given information that would allow them to evaluate their risk and make better decissions.

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I do not disagree and neither, from what I can tell, does Nissan that there is a problem. I am only pointing out that common sense should guide a driver. Problems happen with cars every day and it is the responsibility of the driver to know how to handle it. There are multiple problems that could occur that would render a car (EV, PHEV, HEV, ICE) unable to restart. The driver is the person responsible for taking the best actions to avoid accidents, etc.
I will use an example from my ICE driving experience... My battery light came on one day. I drove to the side of the road and turned off the car. I opened the owner’s manual and it listed a series of issues related to voltage and charging. It said to have the car towed. I followed the instructions and had the car towed and repaired. End of story.
Here is some free helpful advice I learned a long time ago. Yellow light, drive cautiously to where you are going. Red light, pull over and stop the car as soon as possible.

Hmm. Sometimes a prod from the media is needed to get things going.

mogur said:

Anything that can make any car stall and not restart in unexpected ways is a safety issue in my book.

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Agreed, but that's not what is happening here. A car stalling is an entirely different issue from a driver deciding to shut down the car when warning lights are on. Admittedly, if the driver pulls over to the side and shuts down they are still stranded, but I don't see that as a safety issue.

If my engine light comes on (ICE, Electric, Steam, whatever), I'm pulling over to the side of the road before doing ANYTHING else.

Please note:I agree it's a big issue that needs to be fixed ASAP for a number of reasons. I just don't think it's a safety issue.

jamesanne said:

charlie1300 said:

I agree with mogur - Nissan is taking a lawyer's view on what is a safety issue. It's true, the car doesn't blowup, catch on fire, the wheels don't fall of while driving, but the driver's person can be in danger if the car fails to restart unexpectedly. There are many other senarios beside the one mogur mentioned, but they all revolve around one point - there is a known problem where the Leaf will not restart, the symptoms of that problem are recognizable so the informed driver can take action to protect themselves from being stranded in a dangerous position, yet the drivers have not been informed. Shame on Nissan for not caring enough about their customers enough to inform them. All they seem to care about making the argument that a recall is not necessary. Nobody asked for a recall, they asked that all owners be given information that would allow them to evaluate their risk and make better decissions.

Click to expand...

I do not disagree and neither, from what I can tell, does Nissan that there is a problem. I am only pointing out that common sense should guide a driver. Problems happen with cars every day and it is the responsibility of the driver to know how to handle it. There are multiple problems that could occur that would render a car (EV, PHEV, HEV, ICE) unable to restart. The driver is the person responsible for taking the best actions to avoid accidents, etc.
I will use an example from my ICE driving experience... My battery light came on one day. I drove to the side of the road and turned off the car. I opened the owner’s manual and it listed a series of issues related to voltage and charging. It said to have the car towed. I followed the instructions and had the car towed and repaired. End of story.
Here is some free helpful advice I learned a long time ago. Yellow light, drive cautiously to where you are going. Red light, pull over and stop the car as soon as possible.

Click to expand...

And I agree that the driver is responsible for making good choices when something unexpected happens while they are driving. But it's two weeks since the problem was identified, so it's no longer "unexpected". Nissan has had plenty of time to give a heads up to their customers that could help them make better choices. In this particular case, a better choice than pulling off to the side of the road would be to drive home or to the dealer.

Let me make it clear, I want the Leaf to be successful, that's why I find Nissan's response so disturbing. Let me re-write the CNBC article to show what could have been, and the opportunity that Nissan missed -(official Nissan lurker, take note!)

Today, Nissan publicly acknowledged some electric LEAF's have a problem with re-starting after the car has been running.

Nissan issued a statement saying, "This is not a safety issue as the vehicle will not stop running while being driven but may not restart after being turned off." According to Nissan the issue stems from a problem with a sensor in the air conditioning unit, adding, "If this sensor is activated it will illuminate a warning light on the instrument panel and may cause the vehicle to not restart once it has been turned off. We are actively investigating to determine the root cause and what action is necessary to address the issue."

"last week, Nissan pro-actively notified all leaf owners and the certified Leaf dealers with complete details of the problem, and what steps owners should take if they experienced the problem. This notification will minimize the inconvience to owners and speed temporary remediation by the dealers while Nissan continues to investigate the root cause. There is preliminary evidence that only a small portion of Leaf owners will be affected."

(I don't know if the last sentence is true, but Nissan does. If not true, they could replace with an appropriate truth.)

Now doesn't that sound a lot better?

jamesanne said:

mogur said:

Scenario: The light comes on while driving. You stop at a light and decide to reboot the car to see if it will go away (you haven't read this forum to understand the consequences of that). The car is then completely dead and stuck in the middle of a now-busy road. Joe Blow doesn't see that you are stopped in traffic that is now moving and rear ends you.

Anything that can make any car stall and not restart in unexpected ways is a safety issue in my book.

Click to expand...

Reboot? Forget this forum, let's consult the owner's manual...
From page 2-16 EV system warning light
This light illuminates if there is a malfunction in the following systems. Contact a Nissan certified LEAF dealer. Traction motor, and inverter system, Charge port or on board charger, Li-ion battery system, Cooling system, Shift control system, Emergency shot off system is activated. See "emergency shot-off system" in the EV Overview" section.

I don't see anything about "rebooting" the car in a lane of traffic on a heavily traveled road that Joe Blow can crash into you on as the result of actions you took, not covered in the owner's manual. A reasonable person would pull off the road and evaluate what is occurring, consult available documentation (owner's manual), and possible use the included roadside assistance.
From page 6-4 Stopping the vehicle
1. Safely move the vehicle off the road and away from traffic...

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Hello, My name is Carlos, and I powered off my LEAF without consulting my owners manual.
Damn, now why didn't I read this post before I stopped on the roadway away from an intersection with no traffic around and try and resolve the warning light issue a couple weeks ago? I guess I never thought a "reboot" would cause a "no-start" event and leave me stranded. Wow, it worked for my phone to turn it off and then on because I knew it would restart. It worked for my laptop and desktop computer because I knew it would start. It even worked for my ICE when something flashed that it would always restart, whether this cleared up any problems is debatable.

I should have consulted Encyclopedia Nissan LEAF Owners Manual for that statement from Nissan about "Never Ever turn the LEAF OFF because it will NOT RE-START" when this light is lit.
My mistake, I admit it. I'm the only idiot out there that made the assumption my LEAF would restart when asked.
This is my public apology.
Carlos

Carlos said:

I should have consulted Encyclopedia Nissan LEAF Owners Manual for that statement from Nissan about "Never Ever turn the LEAF OFF because it will NOT RE-START" when this light is lit.
My mistake, I admit it. I'm the only idiot out there that made the assumption my LEAF would restart when asked.
This is my public apology.
Carlos

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Would you have turned off your ICE car in the middle of traffic if the check engine light had come on?

davewill said:

Would you have turned off your ICE car in the middle of traffic if the check engine light had come on?

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Yes, I've done that before. See the other thread.