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linkim
Posts: 495
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:23 am

ecoobsessive wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
all of it plays a part. as to the degree i would rate them from worst to best

1) heat
2) time
3) charge cycles
Ok, so can someone clarify for me (if we know the answer) which of the above 3 will "level off" and which are linear?


Thanks.
Another parameter that should be considered is the SOC. High temp and long time at high SOC is definitely not a set of conditions conducive to long battery life.
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ztanos
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:26 am

mksE55 wrote:Add another TX car to the list. Just the other day lost my 12th bar just at 11,000 miles. I have been following along wondering when I would go since the heat issues looks like an obvious battery problem for Nissan. luckily on a lease but was hoping to purchase the car and cont to save thousands on gas. I am a little shocked I didnt make it to the 12,000mile mark. I purchased the car with 3000miles on it from the dealer, and no they were not using the 80% charge rule when I test drove it or weeks later when I purchased the car. I did a mix of 100% charging in the winter and usually 80% summer. Still have saved over 250.00 monthly in gas. My drive distance is short about 15-25 miles a day so I dont think I have to change my driving habits yet. I will sit back and see what Nissan does about this issue for now.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/84220810@N03/7710447022/

What in the world were you driving that you saved $250/month in only 15-25 miles daily? :shock:

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:00 pm

ztanos wrote:
mksE55 wrote:Add another TX car to the list. Just the other day lost my 12th bar just at 11,000 miles. I have been following along wondering when I would go since the heat issues looks like an obvious battery problem for Nissan. luckily on a lease but was hoping to purchase the car and cont to save thousands on gas. I am a little shocked I didnt make it to the 12,000mile mark. I purchased the car with 3000miles on it from the dealer, and no they were not using the 80% charge rule when I test drove it or weeks later when I purchased the car. I did a mix of 100% charging in the winter and usually 80% summer. Still have saved over 250.00 monthly in gas. My drive distance is short about 15-25 miles a day so I dont think I have to change my driving habits yet. I will sit back and see what Nissan does about this issue for now.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/84220810@N03/7710447022/

What in the world were you driving that you saved $250/month in only 15-25 miles daily? :shock:
i know a guy who is driving a Volt and plugs in on both ends (home and work) and he claims he is saving $300 a month over a pickup but besides being his daily commuter, it also takes care of all the errand runs from home
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

leafwing
Posts: 148
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Leaf Number: 0573
Location: Plano, TX

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:06 pm

ztanos wrote:
mksE55 wrote:Add another TX car to the list. Just the other day lost my 12th bar just at 11,000 miles. I have been following along wondering when I would go since the heat issues looks like an obvious battery problem for Nissan. luckily on a lease but was hoping to purchase the car and cont to save thousands on gas. I am a little shocked I didnt make it to the 12,000mile mark. I purchased the car with 3000miles on it from the dealer, and no they were not using the 80% charge rule when I test drove it or weeks later when I purchased the car. I did a mix of 100% charging in the winter and usually 80% summer. Still have saved over 250.00 monthly in gas. My drive distance is short about 15-25 miles a day so I dont think I have to change my driving habits yet. I will sit back and see what Nissan does about this issue for now.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/84220810@N03/7710447022/

What in the world were you driving that you saved $250/month in only 15-25 miles daily? :shock:
San Antonio is the Venice of Texas.
Lost the first capacity bar on 7/04/2012.
Lost the second bar on 6/26/2013.
Lost the third bar on 6/17/2014.
Lost the Fourth Capacity bar on 6/7/2015.

mksE55
Posts: 176
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Leaf Number: 5086
Location: Tyler TX

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:22 pm

ztanos wrote:
mksE55 wrote:Add another TX car to the list. Just the other day lost my 12th bar just at 11,000 miles. I have been following along wondering when I would go since the heat issues looks like an obvious battery problem for Nissan. luckily on a lease but was hoping to purchase the car and cont to save thousands on gas. I am a little shocked I didnt make it to the 12,000mile mark. I purchased the car with 3000miles on it from the dealer, and no they were not using the 80% charge rule when I test drove it or weeks later when I purchased the car. I did a mix of 100% charging in the winter and usually 80% summer. Still have saved over 250.00 monthly in gas. My drive distance is short about 15-25 miles a day so I dont think I have to change my driving habits yet. I will sit back and see what Nissan does about this issue for now.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/84220810@N03/7710447022/

What in the world were you driving that you saved $250/month in only 15-25 miles daily? :shock:

V8 supercharged MB and we drive it full time on weekends so both my car and my wifes SUV sits. I started tracking fuel monthly when it hit 650.00 for1 month. I really have seen some 300.00 plus drops some months but almost never less than 250.00. You dont how much you spend on gas until you start tracking it for 6 months.
Bye Bye Exxon , Shell, Mobil
* 2011 SL
3 bar loss 23,000 mi
in less than 2 yrs
4/14 now 4 bar loss 32,000 just over 2 years

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surfingslovak
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:18 pm

ecoobsessive wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
all of it plays a part. as to the degree i would rate them from worst to best

1) heat
2) time
3) charge cycles
Ok, so can someone clarify for me (if we know the answer) which of the above 3 will "level off" and which are linear?
I have to agree with what Dave said above. For what it's worth, I compiled a spreadsheet with the data from about 40 vehicles from the forum in late May to get a sense where this battery situation might be headed. It's a small sample, but the analysis of this data yielded exactly the same results.

Please keep in mind that I did not have access to permanent degradation figures. Gids are a simple stored capacity reading, and although they give us an idea of how much capacity the battery might have lost, it's not a 1:1 relationship. That said, I calculated the following correlation factors:

Code: Select all

Gids/Miles:          -8.61%
Gids/Vehicle Age:   -13.58%
Gids/Ambient Temp:  -55.56%
This means that vehicle age contributes about twice as much as mileage. In another words, you would expect a one-year-old Leaf with 24 K miles to have about the same level of capacity loss as a two-year-old Leaf with 12 K miles. The higher mileage car would have twice as many full charge cycles. Mileage and charge cycles should be interchangeable in this context.

Although I excluded the Arizona Leafs from the calculation, it's pretty obvious that average ambient temperature seems to have an overwhelming effect. In the small sample I evaluated, it contributed twice as much as vehicle age and mileage combined.

We can only guess, but this could be an expression of the seasonality, which was observed earlier. Still, this is another indication that ambient temperature matters, and has a very noticeable impact on Gid counts.

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JPWhite
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:34 pm

surfingslovak wrote:

Code: Select all

Gids/Miles:          -8.61%
Gids/Vehicle Age:   -13.58%
Gids/Ambient Temp:  -55.56%
Awesome analysis. Nissan NA would do well to retain you as a statistical analyst. They might learn something about their vehicles.
--
JP White
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
2011 Blue SL-e, 132,400 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)
2018 Model 3 20,000 Miles.

N1ghtrider
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:38 pm

I have not lost the bar yet (as I can still see it), but with less than 6,000 miles on the LEAF I am only getting 5 to 6 miles out of the top bar, even with the usage gauge showing I am exceeding 5 m/kWh.
Roy D. Wasson (N1ghtrider)
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:51 pm

I dont think u can use that as accurate measurement of any degradation. I have always lostt he first bar about the same as u r seeing now and I have lost no less than 2% so far
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 16,686 mi, 91.51% SOH
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dhanson865
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:17 pm

ecoobsessive wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
all of it plays a part. as to the degree i would rate them from worst to best

1) heat
2) time
3) charge cycles
Ok, so can someone clarify for me (if we know the answer) which of the above 3 will "level off" and which are linear?


Thanks.
I'm not an engineer or any form of scientist with a degree so consider this a guess from someone who has worked in IT for 20 years (more than an armchair quarterback, less than an expert in this field).

I'm going to say

1) Heat - mostly linear, but variable by usage patterns see below

imagine there is (a, b, c, etcetera) list here of temp ranges. Each temp range ages the battery linearly compared to itself but the higher temps age the battery faster than the lower. So variations in battery temps would make this seem variable but the behavior would be roughly predictable and roughly reproducible.

2) Time - mostly linear, but variable by usage patterns see below

a) at near full charge - linear but faster than c
b) at near zero charge - linear but faster than c
c) between those two states - linear but noticeably slower than a and b

3) Charge cycles - level off

Of course all of this is self limiting as after enough charge cycles the battery becomes impractical to use even though it still works.

I wrote this totally off the cuff and it might be terribly inaccurate so if you have a better idea feel free to correct, support, detract, as you feel fit.
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