Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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azdre

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
171
Location
Phoenix, AZ
In the last few weeks, we've lost one of the 'available' bars (see picture). We've put 17,000 miles on it in 14 months. I immediately called the dealer, and he said it's normal, we'd lose one bar and then won't lose any more, and he's seen it in cars with only 6 months of use. He's had Nissan Engineers evaluate it and it's 'normal'. Battery test from 3/28/2012 was normal, 12 status bars, 5 stars.

At 100% charge, we only get about 3-5 miles now off of the 12th bar. I think I've had 10% drop in range in the last handful of months but I have no evidence to support that. Sometimes my old leadfoot ways return when I least expect it, so I don't want to shout much about overall range, but I "feel" like it's dropped significantly, and the loss of a bar supports that.

Has anyone else seen this? This does not seem like the 'gradual' loss advertised.


EDIT: 7/30/2012
Summary of thread: This is definitely a problem in hot climates. There appears to be NO correlation to car color, air conditioned garages, 80% charging, driving efficiency, miles driven, quick charging, or anything else beside outside ambient temperature. In other words, cars are being treated exactly as outlined in the owner's manual. We personally know at least a dozen leaf owners, many not mentioned below that have lost at least 15% capacity. According to the ScanGuage, the 2 that haven't lost one, are in the 80's and will be losing one soon. Nissan still claims this is normal, gradual loss and not covered under warranty. Phoenix has now seen up to 30% loss in one year, 25,000 miles of driving.

After a news story run on CBS5 Phoenix, Nissan decided to take 6 of the most affected cars out to Casa Grande for testing. Results are not available as of yet.

Also: I updated the title of this thread. 11 bars is the least of our problems at this point!

For an updated list of affected owners, as reported to members of this thread, see the wiki:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For an another summary of some of the topics in this thread, see this post:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
This is the first example I've heard of (can you take a photo?). Common belief is that you have to lose a lot of capacity before you see any indication like this. There's one fellow who has 20,000 miles of 100% charge use, and no indication of capacity loss.
 
azdre said:
Has anyone else seen this? This does not seem like the 'gradual' loss advertised.
I suspect this is normal for the mileage and age of the vehicle. Other things may influence it such as heat, charging to 100% a lot, etc. When I went to get my 1 year inspection recently, they said I'd lost about 2% capacity, but I guess that was not enough to cause a loss of one of the bars on mine yet. I have had mine 1 year and about 9,000 miles.
 
gbarry42 said:
This is the first example I've heard of (can you take a photo?). Common belief is that you have to lose a lot of capacity before you see any indication like this. There's one fellow who has 20,000 miles of 100% charge use, and no indication of capacity loss.


There's 2 links in the post to a photo. I don't have access to a website or ftp site to link directly to the photo. You'll have to click on the FlickR link in the post.
 
adric22 said:
I suspect this is normal for the mileage and age of the vehicle. Other things may influence it such as heat, charging to 100% a lot, etc. When I went to get my 1 year inspection recently, they said I'd lost about 2% capacity, but I guess that was not enough to cause a loss of one of the bars on mine yet. I have had mine 1 year and about 9,000 miles.
Adric, yes, this would be in line with what we have seen elsewhere. Based on an NRL study and anecdotal data from Leaf owners, one would expect about 2% capacity loss per year, on average. Based on what I have seen and heard here and elsewhere, I would think that calender life will be the major driving factor for battery degradation. By extension, one would expect that ambient temperature and the long-term average state of charge will matter most, not a particular charging protocol.
 
Either way you slice it not so good new, and if this is gradual, by the time very limited warranty is over we will have 33% capacity left assuming equal bars
 
I seem to recall in order for that first bar of the battery status indicator to disappear a sizable chunk of battery capacity would need to be lost. I can't seem to find at the moment what the first bar lost equates to. Anyone recall?
 
You do live in a warm climate which is likely going to age a pack sooner. I would expect Nissan and the dealer to say almost everything besides a wheel falling off or 50% capacity loss in the first six months to be "normal". The arguments over what is gradual will continue but it won't matter in the end. I would certainly get more data on this issue though.
 
ya was it not like 15%? thanks for the pic. i was looking at the "other" bars to disappear.

give us some more info on your charging patterns, distance driven, how much time you let car sit at 100%, how many turtle events, etc

and

do you garage car or have covered parking at work. i ask this because u are the 2nd AZ resident to have issues. maybe heat is more of a factor than we realized?
 
Spies said:
I seem to recall in order for that first bar of the battery status indicator to disappear a sizable chunk of battery capacity would need to be lost. I can't seem to find at the moment what the first bar lost equates to. Anyone recall?
Steve, it's 16% if memory serves.
 
The first bar gone means they have 85% battery capacity left. The first bar doesn't disappear until you've lost 15%. So this doesn't sound "gradual" to me. 2% sounds gradual. Azdre, has your 'EV systems light' ever come on (and stayed on) during charging or right after you start the car?
Mine is down 10-12%, but I know it is some bad cells/module because I've had that 'EV systems light' come on three times now and my SoC gauge shows 83-85% after a 100% charge instead of 94-95% which was normal for me. After I turn off the car and restart, the light always goes out.
 
Since you are, AFAIK, the first to report this, would you give some more of your car's back story?

What are your charging/driving habits?

Do you charge to 100% and keep it there, or discharge to below LBW often?

What is the ambient temp where your car is driven or parked?

What sort of temp bar levels on the dash, do you see during the Summer?

I believe that if you "accept" and monitor your CW kWh use on long trips, you will get accurate reports of available battery capacity, that would certainly show a reduction, if in the order of10%.

With one year and 8,500 miles on my LEAF, I am pretty sure my available capacity has not dropped more than a few percent, if any.


azdre said:
In the last few weeks, we've lost one of the 'available' bars (see picture). We've put 17,000 miles on it in 14 months. I immediately called the dealer, and he said it's normal, we'd lose one bar and then won't lose any more, and he's seen it in cars with only 6 months of use. He's had Nissan Engineers evaluate it and it's 'normal'. Battery test from 3/28/2012 was normal, 12 status bars, 5 stars.

At 100% charge, we only get about 3-5 miles now off of the 12th bar. I think I've had 10% drop in range in the last handful of months but I have no evidence to support that. Sometimes my old leadfoot ways return when I least expect it, so I don't want to shout much about overall range, but I "feel" like it's dropped significantly, and the loss of a bar supports that.

Has anyone else seen this? This does not seem like the 'gradual' loss advertised.

http://flic.kr/p/bVbwYG
 
azdre said:
There's 2 links in the post to a photo.
Well, that's proof that I read too fast.

We've assumed the bars to be equally spaced, so 11/12 means 92%. We further assume they won't turn off the first one until it's halfway through the next one, so that's 10.5/12 or 87%. That's the number I see thrown about the most.
 
For Nissan to claim this is normal seems more potentially damaging to them financially in terms of low future sales than discretely handling these cases in a more generous manner. For me, the trust gap with Nissan over battery capacity is growing. Consumer confidence is key if they really want this technology to grow; my confidence in the product is declining with seeing how they handle each of these extreme cases.
 
gbarry42 said:
azdre said:
There's 2 links in the post to a photo.
Well, that's proof that I read too fast.

We've assumed the bars to be equally spaced, so 11/12 means 92%. We further assume they won't turn off the first one until it's halfway through the next one, so that's 10.5/12 or 87%. That's the number I see thrown about the most.

That's incorrect, the capacity bars are not linear or equally spaced, neither are the fuel bars. I've gotten 14 miles on the 12th fuel bar (after a 100% QC), even with my 10% battery capacity loss.
 
Let's see if I can answer all of your questions:

* We always charge to 100% (we drive it a lot, 17,000 miles in 14 months of driving).
* We do 'top it off' a lot. That's the one item we got 4/5 stars on the battery check in March 2012.
* The car sat at 100% for a month in May, 2011, not plugged in.
* It's almost always garaged or in covered parking.
* We get the low battery warning about once a month.
* Never turtled. Been meaning to try this out though.
* We've QC'd 2-3 times this spring.
* There's been no error messages (aside from the A/C fiasco last summer, please don't make me relive that one.)
* My husband is a nut about keeping the tire pressure monitored and consistant.
* I'll pull the carwings data and add it to here tonight.

I'm thinking I should take it in to the dealer for some documentation even if they turn me away initially.
 
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