jspearman
Posts: 244
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:04 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 5954
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:53 am

RickS wrote:FYI I just called and filed a case with Nissan since bar 12 went away. They mentioned "I know a lot of Arizona owners have been experiencing that issue due to the extreme heat you have been having".

Hmmm...

Funny. It makes it sound like other summers in Phoenix have been cool and breezy.

I had a complaint number from when I called a couple of weeks ago, but I've lost it. While writing on the back of incoming mail is often an excellent system, it failed me on this occasion.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:54 am

DANandNAN wrote:From the story:
Scott Yarosh wrote:"When I first purchased the vehicle, I could drive to and from work on a single charge, approximately 90 miles round trip," Yarosh said.

And now, he says, "I can drive approximately 44 miles on this without having to stop and charge."
Yikes! Who was it that said most owners wouldn't notice if they didn't have the capacity gauge :roll:
I think we should all plan on losing drivable range faster than we lose capacity in a BEV. There are at least two reasons to expect this:

1) At the same time the capacity of the cells is being reduced, the resistance of the cells is being increased, likely by a larger fraction than the capacity reduction. This increase in resistance means that the battery will be less efficient and that you will lose more range than just what would be indicated by just a capacity calculation. (BTW, this additional loss will mean higher temperatures in the battery, as well.)

2) Unless we are willing to call a tow truck to get to our destinations, we all have a "mental reserve" that we add to any trip to ensure that we get to our destination. For some it may be bars, for others, it may be GOM miles and for still others it is GIDs. Whatever it is for an individual, it is what they are comfortable with and it does not change as the capacity decreases. For illustration, let's take a case where a driver can travel 90 miles in their BEV when it is new until they *believe* that they only have 10 miles left. They likely will feel they have a car with a 90-mile range, even though the car can go 100 miles. Then let's say the car loses 50% of its range. This driver may then feel they have a car with only a 40-mile range. The car has lost 50% of its range, but because of the "mental reserve" needed to get safely to a destination, the driver feels the car has lost 56% of its range.

In this case, perhaps losing three bars results in a range loss of close to 35% when resistance increase is included. Combining that with the idea of a reserve needed to get to a destination, then the numbers don't seem too crazy.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

User avatar
vrwl
Forum Supporter
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 2:16 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 8597
Location: Northeastern PA/Poconos

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:56 am

mdh wrote:
vrwl wrote:Ok folks... the table for the 1 Bar Losses is up on the Wiki. Please review the entries for accuracy (my eyes are going buggy so any extra eyes looking at this thing are greatly appreciated). If anything is wrong or if you'd like to fill in any missing data associated with your entry, please PM me through the forum with the corrected/updated data. Thanks :)
you might want to modify to allow for second and third bar losses?
I was in the process of posting separate tables for those.... but I'm willing to do it differently if the group wants it all combined into one table. Thoughts?? Personally, I think the separate tables is "cleaner"... we can post the mileage and dates for the 2nd bar losses independently of the 1 bar losses.
Vicki
2011 Silver SL-Mfg 8/11-Purch 6/12
34000 miles

opossum
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:40 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 500
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:00 pm

mwalsh wrote:Anyone think we need a new thread that begins outlining what we think Nissan should do for those with significant premature losses? Since we know they're watching, it might help them in formulating a path forward if they have an idea what our expectations are.
When people call and register the complaints, they will ask you what you want them to do about it. I would suggest that the focus here be on how best to force Nissan's hand NOW, before too many of us have cars with 10-mile range. They are not acting because no one is forcing them to. Lawyer up, people! :twisted:

vrwl, great job. Separate tables sounds cleaner to me, also.
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

opossum
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:40 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 500
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:26 pm

I still advocate flooding Nissan with registered complaints. But don't expect our proposed remedies to convince them to act. We just got our call-back today on our case. Coincidence? Here is a summary...

* In our original request, we asked them to buy back the car. Their final decision was no.
* I asked if they had any other proposed remedies. Answer: no.
* I asked if Nissan is acknowledging an issue with our car or Leafs in general. Answer: The car is still meeting specifications and the capacity loss is to be expected with batteries.
* It was suggested that we contact the BBB. Done.
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:29 pm

opossum wrote:I still advocate flooding Nissan with registered complaints. But don't expect our proposed remedies to convince them to act. We just got our call-back today on our case. Coincidence? Here is a summary...

* In our original request, we asked them to buy back the car. Their final decision was no.
* I asked if they had any other proposed remedies. Answer: no.
* I asked if Nissan is acknowledging an issue with our car or Leafs in general. Answer: The car is still meeting specifications and the capacity loss is to be expected with batteries.
* It was suggested that we contact the BBB. Done.
it is clear: Nissan has decided to take the low road on this issue.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

Volusiano
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:41 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:37 pm

opossum wrote:
mwalsh wrote:Anyone think we need a new thread that begins outlining what we think Nissan should do for those with significant premature losses? Since we know they're watching, it might help them in formulating a path forward if they have an idea what our expectations are.
When people call and register the complaints, they will ask you what you want them to do about it. I would suggest that the focus here be on how best to force Nissan's hand NOW, before too many of us have cars with 10-mile range. They are not acting because no one is forcing them to. Lawyer up, people! :twisted:
When I called them to register my complaint, Nissan never asked me what I want them to do about it. They just gave me my case number. And they reiterated to me that capacity loss is not under warranty.

GaslessInSeattle
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 2:15 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 850

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:42 pm

I had quite a long conversation with a dealer rep yesterday about this whole thing. I basically told him that I was appalled at Nissan's response to the issue and it was leading me to consider selling the car "before the Leaf bubble bursts". He was very frank with me about how much slower the gears turn in any large company's corporate level and assured me that Nissan is paying attention and taking the needed time to asses the situation and figure out what response is required. He agreed that something needs to be done and fast.

I would very strongly urge everyone who is loosing bar(s) to create an official complaint and make sure that complaint is going to the highest levels. I get the very clear feeling that while many of us have been watching this slow motion train wreck for what feels like a long time, paying attention daily, reporting to local dealers and even running the tally here, that this is just now making it to the higher ups in the corporate sphere of Nissan where a new course of action will need to originate.

We should not assume that the people at Nissan who need to hear about this pay any attention to this forum... please report your range loss and make sure it gets to corporate!


RickS wrote:FYI I just called and filed a case with Nissan since bar 12 went away. They mentioned "I know a lot of Arizona owners have been experiencing that issue due to the extreme heat you have been having".

Hmmm...
Gasless: Silver 2012 SL, traded in for Lease on 1/13
Tesla S P85, Gray, pano, carbon fiber, took delivery: 2-9-13... LOVE this car!
9.8 kW PV Solar installed 9/12, http://www.westseattlenaturalenergy.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

shrink
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 21842
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:40 pm

opossum wrote:I still advocate flooding Nissan with registered complaints. But don't expect our proposed remedies to convince them to act. We just got our call-back today on our case. Coincidence? Here is a summary...

* In our original request, we asked them to buy back the car. Their final decision was no.
* I asked if they had any other proposed remedies. Answer: no.
* I asked if Nissan is acknowledging an issue with our car or Leafs in general. Answer: The car is still meeting specifications and the capacity loss is to be expected with batteries.
* It was suggested that we contact the BBB. Done.
I'm sorry to hear that. The Nissan response is absolutely infuriating. How can a battery pack that appears to have degraded to the advertised 10-year capacity within the first 16 months be "within spec" and "expected?"

They are really squandering an opportunity to take care of early adopters and bolster faith in and progress of EV's. If the early adopting enthusiast has such a bad experience and Nissan essentially says that they are SOL, what does that say about the future of this car?
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

GaslessInSeattle
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 2:15 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 850

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:51 pm

just spent 45 minutes on the phone with a rep on the EV hotline... figured if I'm concerned enough to contemplate selling my car, that I should call and lodge a formal complaint even though I have not experienced capacity loss, as they really need to know how this is effecting the overall market. again, I would urge anyone with actual loss to contact Nissan, the EV hotline is a fine way to do it, they will give you a case number... the EV hotline number is 877-664-2738. I directed the rep to this thread and specifically to page 135 where the last tally is. he was unaware of a tally and he said he frequents this site. the tally and this thread is now officially included in my complaint as a reference. according to the rep, Nissan does not assign anyone to this site to monitor it and it is therefore not an official way to communicate with Nissan. If you have an issue, posting it here does little if anything to communicate directly with Nissan, and more importantly, it does not give them an opportunity to accurately understand the magnitude of the issue and adequately devise a response to the issue.

At first the guy tried to argue that since I do not live in a hot climate that it does not make sense that I would be concerned. I explained that I am an early adopter that plans on trading up periodically until the technology reaches a point where a car with 2-300 miles of range is affordable and therefore the resale value of the car is of significant concern to me... further, for me to stay behind a brand, I need to feel good about recommending it to others and right now, that is in serious question when it comes to Nissan. IMHO, Nissan needs to know that how they treat hot climate Leaf owners is of concern to everyone. I specifically requested that they come up with a response that would reassure the bulk of owners that, with the exception of abuse, they will stand behind their product and cover extreme range loss under warranty... pointing out that range is about the only thing that people care about and paradoxically, is the only thing excluded in the warranty, a strategy that surely will not stand the test of time in the market place.

Oddly, I feel better after talking to Nissan. I don't think they are aware at the top of the magnitude of what many of us have been watching for some time now. I may decide to hold out for some more time to see if they come up with a response that assuages my concerns.
Gasless: Silver 2012 SL, traded in for Lease on 1/13
Tesla S P85, Gray, pano, carbon fiber, took delivery: 2-9-13... LOVE this car!
9.8 kW PV Solar installed 9/12, http://www.westseattlenaturalenergy.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Return to “Problems / Troubleshooting”