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OrientExpress
Posts: 1579
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:59 pm

JRP3 wrote:There are powerful forces determined to kill the EV. They have been predicting that EV batteries will die early deaths, that the vehicles will become useless because of loss of range, and that the general public will abandon them as reliable transportation because of that. The recent problems with the LEAF in hot climates gives them "proof" that they can reference to back their claims, and they will.
So stop giving energy to these "powerful forces" by whining and give things time to work themselves out.

if you can't even get to work on a single charge your car does not work just fine, or if you don't have the ability to charge at work and you can't do the round trip on a single charge, your car does not work just fine.
Do you have that situation, or know someone that has that situation, or are you just being hypothetical?
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

shrink
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 21842
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:17 pm

OrientExpress wrote:I'm probably the most rationale one of the bunch.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hardly, but certainly one with the most hubris.
OrientExpress wrote: Your 3 bar guy can still drive his car just fine, everything works just fine, he just has to "fill-up" more often.
The 3-bar guy's car works just fine? Really? He has zero room for error. He can't take side trips. He has to limit his use of heat and A/C, as well as his highway driving. And no one knows when he losses will level out. Filling up more often is not like a 1-minute gas fill-up. It takes hours without a QC. You know better than that.

Tell you what, I'd like you to recommend purchasing one of these perfectly functional Phoenix area LEAFs to one of you friends in cool California - at the full market values you keep quoting. In fact, why don't you buy the cars featured in the news report? They are, of course, working perfectly and worth just as much as other LEAFs of a similar age and mileage. It's only rational.
OrientExpress wrote:Manufacturer says they will see what they can do to fix it.
Um, no, they are saying the loss is "normal."

The LEAF has no warranty on the most important part - the battery capacity. How rational is it to buy a car without a warranty? Early adopters put their faith in what Nissan told them, but now that concerns are arising, they are telling their earliest adopters that they are SOL. Sounds like a car the mainstream would sure want to buy.

"Aside from that terminal cancer, I'm perfectly healthy!"
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

QueenBee
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:14 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 2062
Location: Portland

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:31 pm

shrink wrote: The LEAF has no warranty on the most important part - the battery capacity. How rational is it to buy a car without a warranty?
I'd argue that the battery/drive train/etc. actually working is more important than the capacity/range.

But I agree I just don't understand why Nissan was confident enough in their testing to chose AZ as one of their first markets, make lots of claims about expected battery capacity life, but not confident enough to provide us with a capacity warranty.

I just hope Nissan is close to having a real response to this concerning issue before it gets out of hand in the media.

JRP3
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:04 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:33 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
JRP3 wrote:
if you can't even get to work on a single charge your car does not work just fine, or if you don't have the ability to charge at work and you can't do the round trip on a single charge, your car does not work just fine.
Do you have that situation, or know someone that has that situation, or are you just being hypothetical?
Statistically if it hasn't happened yet it's going to. Not acceptable, and not acceptable for Nissan to keep saying it's normal and expected.

Herm
Posts: 3765
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Aug 2012
Location: Timbuktu, Mali

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:59 pm

QueenBee wrote: But I agree I just don't understand why Nissan was confident enough in their testing to chose AZ as one of their first markets, make lots of claims about expected battery capacity life, but not confident enough to provide us with a capacity warranty.
They messed up their testing.. probably had a few Leafs running continuosly around a track instead of baking on a Phoenix parking lot day after day.. also perhaps they did not drive the car as agressively as some of our members or perhaps charged to 100% as often.

Perhaps management did not want to hear the bad news when the testing was going on and the engineers kept their mouth shut.

HXGuy
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 12:44 am
Delivery Date: 16 May 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:09 pm

Does anyone know during what period, how long and how many miles the testing took place in Arizona?

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1579
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:13 pm

JRP3 wrote: Statistically if it hasn't happened yet it's going to. Not acceptable, and not acceptable for Nissan to keep saying it's normal and expected.
Yes, given enough time and cycles there is pretty much a 100% chance that something of some weird-ass nature is going to happen. But so far, this situation is so far off in the tail to be statistically improbable. Could it become an issue, yes, but most likely improbable because by then what ever the fix is to whatever is causing the supposed situation is, will have been discovered and rolled out to the fleet. So in the larger scheme of how the automotive business works this is pretty normal and expected. (yes there are people at places like Nissan that do nothing but calculate the probability of any part of a car screwing up, and what it will cost to fix it vs. just let it ride.) Now if you tend to freak out about stuff easily, and your car is acting like how 145 pages of reporting describes it may, and there are plenty of experts available to espouse the monumental travesty of your situation, you may disagree with me.

But, in the end, you can get worked up, or you can relax, focus on the positive of your LEAF, I guarantee there are many more exquisite positives, then there are this negative to think about. This is going to work itself out. It won't be today, or maybe next week or longer, but it will happen, and in the mean time, your LEAF will continue to serve you with all its got.

Ok, one other thing,
So even though the number of cars that exhibit this phenomena is very small, would you not agree that what is fascinating is the geographic distribution. (and no not Duh, because it is Phoenix, It is much more that that.) The cluster is around a beta factor that most of these 32 folks live in a place that is best described in the summer as an Inferno, and just Hot the rest of the year. Why do you think that is? What is the glue?
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

HXGuy
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 12:44 am
Delivery Date: 16 May 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:29 pm

I'm a bit confused here...hasn't that scenario already happened with the guy who was interviewed in the video? He said he used to be able to go 90 miles roundtrip to work and now can only go 44 miles, and can no longer take the LEAF to work. So this is not a "what if" or "could it" type of situation, it has already happened.

Stoaty
Posts: 4490
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:32 pm

Here is the quote from Mark Perry in the wired.com article where Darryl Siry said that not having a TMS was a huge mistake, and that problems would certainly show up in places like Phoenix:
Mark Perry, Nissan’s director of product planning for the United States, dismissed the importance of active thermal management.

“We don’t need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that…. We’ve gone on the record saying that the pack has a 70 to 80 percent capacity after 10 years,” he told Wired.com. Pressed on whether that is realistic for a passively cooled manganese oxide pack, Perry said yes.

“If it wasn’t our pack and it wasn’t our engineers and we weren’t working on it for 17 years … we wouldn’t make the statement if we weren’t confident in our ability to do so,” he said.
You can read the article here: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now who was right? Can anyone figure out why people might be pissed after Mark Perry makes this statement and we already have several people who are very close to the 70% mark after less than 18 months?
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

opossum
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:40 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 500
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:06 pm

Scott's car tonight:

ScanGauge 65.4% (183.8 GID)
26,170 miles

We did some more filming with Heather Moore for a follow-up story on KPHO CBS 5. We do not yet know when the story will air.
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

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