Tajim
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:03 am

Weatherman wrote:
keydiver wrote:
Tajim wrote:I am very concerned about this issue. I live in South Florida. After reading these post I have to imagine that it is a matter of time (soon) that I will have the same loss as everybody else.
Don't overreact, yet. There's a big difference between our temperatures in South Florida and Phoenix.
Agreed. Contrary to something I recently read, South Florida does not have a hot, harsh climate. In fact, where I'm at right now it's cloudy, raining and 82 degrees. Pretty typical summer weather.

If you like the LEAF and are willing to do a little "battery temperature management" of your own, I'd suggest the following:

1) Park the car outside at night. If you have an enclosed garage, it can be as much as 10 degrees warmer overnight in the garage than it is outside.
2) Park in the shade during the day, or, at least in a location that gets some shade during the day.
3) Buy and use a HeatShield for your windshield. It's amazing how much cooler the car's cabin is when most of the sunlight is reflected away.
4) Only charge your battery during the early morning hours when it's "cool".
5) If you don't drive a long distance in a typical day, don't even charge to 80%. I drive about 35 miles a day, and I charge to 67% (8 bars). It requires manual intervention, of course. I still have two bars left at the end of the day.
I have followed most of these recommendation to date, except #1, as we park in the garage at night. I usually never go lower than 2 bars above red. I will let everybody know when I loose a bar. By the way, I have never turtled the car.

Thanks for the info.

dsh
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:03 am

New article on Battery Degredation and what Nissan is(should) be doing about it:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/arizo ... 46508.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by dsh on Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
SL-e

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:04 am

drees wrote: IMO - just about all the capacity loss we've seen is "normal". I simply think that either Nissan was a bit naive to think that losing 10-25% capacity after one year is acceptable to consumers when they are expecting 20% after 5 years worst case scenario.
Which is why GM built in capacity to be used as the battery degrades, AND added TMS to mitigate degradation in hot climates.
smkettner wrote:Average just does not work.
drees wrote:Month / Phoenix / Miramar / Difference
Jul 2012....94 .........70 ..........24


Wow - using this data it's rare that San Diego has a mean temperature lower than Phoenix - only happens in Dec. But for 6 months of the year the Phoenix mean temp is 20-30F higher than San Diego! I have no idea how weather.com gets it's average temperature, but saying on average 6F warmer is certainly very misleading.

Thanks for putting this together.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TomT
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:05 am

Actually, the C charge rate for the size of the battery is quite low at L2 3.3Kw. Very little heat is produced from such charging.
Alric wrote:Given the degradation issues I wonder why chargers are not voltage variable. It seems a lot of heat comes from pushing with higher voltage by the L2. Most people would charge overnight and the charge could be spread over a longer time period.
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Weatherman
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:14 am

TomT wrote:I don't believe this is going to make any appreciable difference since the Leaf's battery pack is sealed and beneath the car, outside of the cabin environment. Thus, cabin temperatures will not have any noticable influence on battery temps.
Weatherman wrote:3) Buy and use a HeatShield for your windshield. It's amazing how much cooler the car's cabin is when most of the sunlight is reflected away.
I know there have been a number of studies which focus on "solar loading" and its affect on battery life, so I put it in there as a recommendation, just in case.

This one might be pretty easy to test by putting a max/min thermometer in the compartment where the HV disconnect plug is located and put the cover plate back on. If there's little radiant heat from the cabin, the temp in that compartment should stay closer to the outside air temp than the cabin temp.
2013 Crystal Red Volt
2012 SV Glacier Pearl LEAF; turned in 5/12/2015:18.6K Miles:50.13 AHr:10 bars, 24% gone

Herm
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:16 am

TomT wrote:I don't believe this is going to make any appreciable difference since the Leaf's battery pack is sealed and beneath the car, outside of the cabin environment. Thus, cabin temperatures will not have any noticeable influence on battery temps.
It will make a difference to your AC load.

How about lining the plastic shield under the battery with AC duct aluminum tape?.. this should reflect off some of the pavement radiant heat but not degrade heat carried away by the air too much.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:16 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
drees wrote: IMO - just about all the capacity loss we've seen is "normal". I simply think that either Nissan was a bit naive to think that losing 10-25% capacity after one year is acceptable to consumers when they are expecting 20% after 5 years worst case scenario.
Which is why GM built in capacity to be used as the battery degrades, AND added TMS to mitigate degradation in hot climates.
smkettner wrote:Average just does not work.
drees wrote:Month / Phoenix / Miramar / Difference
Jul 2012....94 .........70 ..........24


Wow - using this data it's rare that San Diego has a mean temperature lower than Phoenix - only happens in Dec. But for 6 months of the year the Phoenix mean temp is 20-30F higher than San Diego! I have no idea how weather.com gets it's average temperature, but saying on average 6F warmer is certainly very misleading.

Thanks for putting this together.

I believe GM did that because they were required. The pack is part of the emissions system on a hybrid and must meet specific warranty criteria just like the Prius. Opening capacity is a solution to this requirement. If Nissan had to meet this requirement things would be different but the pack on a full EV is not part of the emission control system.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:17 am

Tajim wrote:Hello, as a long time lurker, first time poster, I am very concerned about this issue. I bought my leaf in Feb of this year. It was a 2011 demo with 400 miles on it. I live in South Florida. After reading these post I have to imagine that it is a matter of time (soon) that I will have the same loss as everybody else. I still have full bars at 100% charge, but now only get 9 bars at 80%. Only 5000 miles on the car.
Unfortunately, since you bought a demo LEAF, as did I, your car very likely sat at 100% charge for six months before you bought it. It's also likely that all of these demo LEAFs had undisclosed battery degradation at the time that we purchased them independent of the number of miles on the odometer. Caveat emptor!
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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TickTock
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:23 am

Weatherman wrote:
TomT wrote:I don't believe this is going to make any appreciable difference since the Leaf's battery pack is sealed and beneath the car, outside of the cabin environment. Thus, cabin temperatures will not have any noticable influence on battery temps.
Weatherman wrote:3) Buy and use a HeatShield for your windshield. It's amazing how much cooler the car's cabin is when most of the sunlight is reflected away.
I know there have been a number of studies which focus on "solar loading" and its affect on battery life, so I put it in there as a recommendation, just in case.

This one might be pretty easy to test by putting a max/min thermometer in the compartment where the HV disconnect plug is located and put the cover plate back on. If there's little radiant heat from the cabin, the temp in that compartment should stay closer to the outside air temp than the cabin temp.
yup:
Leaf Battery Temp over 24 hours

Upper temperature reading is taken from inside the hatch area.

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TomT
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:30 am

Since that compartment is outside the battery environment, I'm not sure how relevant such data would be to actual pack temperature as their is significant thermal isolation between the two... A heat shield will reduce your initial A/C load however, so it is certainly beneficial from that perspective if nothing else...
Weatherman wrote:This one might be pretty easy to test by putting a max/min thermometer in the compartment where the HV disconnect plug is located and put the cover plate back on. If there's little radiant heat from the cabin, the temp in that compartment should stay closer to the outside air temp than the cabin temp.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

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