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Nubo
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:37 am

surfingslovak wrote:...
I never believed in any threshold temperature or hockey-stick acceleration of battery degradation at higher temperatures. To me these are chemical processes, which run faster at a higher temperature and slower at a lower temperature. The aging velocity is an aggregate process, and overall battery degradation is the cumulative result of all the changes that took place in the battery. Please keep in mind that these things are analog beasts, not digital. Degradation is not subject to some sharply defined thresholds. It happens all the time, the only thing that varies is the speed...
An oversimplification. There are multiple reactions going on in a battery. The favorable ones are reversible (charge/discharge), the unfavorable ones are not. Many reactions have a threshold energy and rate vs. temp is not necessarily a straight line. Google image search "reaction rate vs. temperature" and you'll see every shape of curve imaginable. Also there are physical changes to the cathode/anode material, plating of metals, etc... I would not assume that any of these progress linearly with temperature. The battery designers are always after better magic that will move the regimes of the unfavorable reactions outside of the expected operating range. They are very deliberately creating "hockey sticks".

However, if your assumptions fit the data you have collected, then maybe that's good enough. :)
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

ALLWATZ
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Location: Palm Springs area

Re: NHTSA doesn't seem like proper place for non-safety comp

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:38 am

cwerdna wrote:
ALLWATZ wrote:
cwerdna wrote: When you get to the form at https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleCo ... ndex.xhtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, again, it says SAFETY at the top. If you click on the Help link, it also says "Filing a Vehicle Safety Complaint... You can use the Vehicle Safety Complaint form to register a safety complaint about your vehicle."

There can be and have been SAFETY-related defects in power windows (e.g. door fires due to faulty power window switches).

Per http://www.nhtsa.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, NHTSA stands for National Highway Traffic SAFETY Administration.
I wouldn't worry about the "black helicopters" coming out of their hangers and flying over your house just yet by just sending in an inquiry.

Yes, the word safety does appear many times in the text of the web site. First and foremost this is a gov. agency for the investigation of safety related issues with cars that the manufacturer has not taken care of properly. Some would argue that not having enough miles to complete a trip is not a safety issue.

It does take in all inquiries and what are you afraid of? At worst if only 2 or 3 of us send in issues that they deem unsuitable for there mission statement , they will simply dismiss them. On the other hand, if enough send in problems, they may actually investigate. A win-win situation as we will be known as "job creators" and will see our tax dollars at work.
I doubt there'd be any black helicopters but the fact that you haven't supplied me any evidence that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is the right place in which submit non-safety complaints tells me something.

I think it a better use of time to direct the complaints to the proper body. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sounds like a reasonable guess. The other AZ body I mentioned seems like a decent place too, for AZ folks. We should obviously try to come up with other govt agencies and others that have the interests of consumers in mind.
Well there are people that complain and people that do. Still awaiting the date and case # from your filing with the FTC. I am all for anything that helps put pressure on Nissan to up their game.

I did however file a complaint with The Center for Auto Safety http://www.autosafety.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. This is the consumer organization founded by Ralph Nadar and the people who got a class action lawsuit (and settlement) for the Toyota and Lexus engine oil sludge issues a few years back (I will await the eventual statement that, once again I am endorsing a safety website, even though the sludge issue was not safety related). They even have a box to check if you want to be part of a class action. Once again, I also included the link, http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php? ... s#one_bars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Still not sure they will take into account any reference that is not individually generated and judging by how few responded about putting in claims to either Consumer Reports or NHTSA, it's going to be a long time before anyone takes this seriously.

Cheezmo
Posts: 359
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Leaf Number: 9084
Location: Plano, TX

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:38 am

Herm wrote:The Volt is a very nice premium compact, and you can get incredible lease deals on it now.. but for all we know they may suffer from battery degradation just as bad as a Leaf.. probably not. Volt does not have a FRICKIN huge temperature and battery degradation meter on the dash.
Measuring battery degradation on the Volt is actually easier than on the Leaf.

The Volt reports how many kWh used since last full charge. Run until the engine comes on and you get a precise measure of how many kWh the battery produced for you. If that starts dropping people will see and report it.
Steve Martin
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RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:46 am

Cheezmo wrote:Measuring battery degradation on the Volt is actually easier than on the Leaf.

The Volt reports how many kWh used since last full charge. Run until the engine comes on and you get a precise measure of how many kWh the battery produced for you. If that starts dropping people will see and report it.
How much variation do you see from owner to owner and from drive to drive? Are the results closely grouped around 10.5 kWh or is there a wide variation?
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

DaveinOlyWA
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Leaf Number: 319862
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:49 am

TomT wrote:I don't believe this is going to make any appreciable difference since the Leaf's battery pack is sealed and beneath the car, outside of the cabin environment. Thus, cabin temperatures will not have any noticable influence on battery temps.
Weatherman wrote:3) Buy and use a HeatShield for your windshield. It's amazing how much cooler the car's cabin is when most of the sunlight is reflected away.
me neither. i jacked up the car when it was 6 TBs to feel around for warmth and got nothing. besides being sealed in a metal case which would conduct heat well, its wrapped in plastic. the thought of maybe blowing a fan across the bottom of it i am guessing will do too little to make a difference.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Weatherman
Posts: 916
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Leaf Number: 20922
Location: Weston, Florida

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:53 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
TomT wrote:I don't believe this is going to make any appreciable difference since the Leaf's battery pack is sealed and beneath the car, outside of the cabin environment. Thus, cabin temperatures will not have any noticable influence on battery temps.
Weatherman wrote:3) Buy and use a HeatShield for your windshield. It's amazing how much cooler the car's cabin is when most of the sunlight is reflected away.
me neither. i jacked up the car when it was 6 TBs to feel around for warmth and got nothing. besides being sealed in a metal case which would conduct heat well, its wrapped in plastic. the thought of maybe blowing a fan across the bottom of it i am guessing will do too little to make a difference.
I think what I'd be curious about was if the car had been sitting in the sun all day and the cabin temp was a nice, toasty 150F, whether the cabin was sufficiently insulated from the battery that little or none of that heat from the cabin was transferred down to it.
2013 Crystal Red Volt
2012 SV Glacier Pearl LEAF; turned in 5/12/2015:18.6K Miles:50.13 AHr:10 bars, 24% gone

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15065
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
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Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:06 am

Weatherman wrote:
I think what I'd be curious about was if the car had been sitting in the sun all day and the cabin temp was a nice, toasty 150F, whether the cabin was sufficiently insulated from the battery that little or none of that heat from the cabin was transferred down to it.
i think that is a different situation. its like covering a pot roast in aluminum foil. it might not burn but it will still cook.

anything that can be done to reduce radiated heat buildup will probably help. cracking the windows a bit, sunshades, parking in the shade, even parking on white pavement verses black asphalt all probably helps a bit.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 13,705 mi, 93.41% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cwerdna
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: NHTSA doesn't seem like proper place for non-safety comp

Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:07 am

ALLWATZ wrote: Well there are people that complain and people that do. Still awaiting the date and case # from your filing with the FTC. I am all for anything that helps put pressure on Nissan to up their game.
My filing with the FTC? I don't even have a Leaf.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

smkettner
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Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:11 am

Maybe a complete car cover is appropriate if sitting all the hot day in direct sun.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

ALLWATZ
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:15 am
Delivery Date: 14 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 6877
Location: Palm Springs area

Re: NHTSA doesn't seem like proper place for non-safety comp

Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:13 am

cwerdna wrote:
ALLWATZ wrote: Well there are people that complain and people that do. Still awaiting the date and case # from your filing with the FTC. I am all for anything that helps put pressure on Nissan to up their game.
My filing with the FTC? I don't even have a Leaf.
Exactly my point!

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