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TonyWilliams
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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:47 pm

Before anybody signs an attorney/client priviledge document, please take a deep breath (EVEN AFTER MR. PERRY'S or other Nissan decision maker's announcement in the coming weeks) and wait a week or two. My honest opinion is that there may be no other logical option, but companies don't "fix" things in litigation. They can't. They'd lose, since that's akin to admitting their product was faulty.

Anyway, all I'm asking for is wait a week AFTER the announcement. We'll hash it out here. If you still, then, don't have a good taste for the situation, do what you have to do.

stanley
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:04 pm

The only people that do well in this type of litigation are the lawyers not the individual or Class they represent. Most litigation is settled. When matters are settled the lawyers get paid for every hour they put in. While the individual plaintiff or Class receives very little. Usually no more and often less than a reputable Company being sued would have worked out informally without a lawsuit. Nissan is a reputable Company and will ultimately do the right thing. The problem is, as with most large Companys,there are so many bureaucratic layers that it takes a while for them to come up with a plan to do what is right.I am confident Nissan will not let their (Billions) in EV investment be diminished by inaction. Hang in there as Tony suggests.

Leland
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:38 pm
Delivery Date: 21 May 2011
Leaf Number: 0000000
Location: Riverside, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:18 pm

Pulled out of the garage this morning for my 4am commute to work and capacity bar #12 was gone. Current odometer 20,165. My wife has been driving the LEAF for the past few weeks and swears they were all there when she parked it last night.....
22 Suntech 185w/Enphase M250

2011 LEAF SL (Sold Feb 2013)
2011 BMW ActiveE (Returned March 2014)
2013 Tesla Model S
2013 Fiat 500e
2015 Fiat 500e

downeykp
Forum Supporter
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:11 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1931
Location: Keaau, HI

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:20 pm

Ok, now you guys are starting to worry me. I didn't buy my Leaf to have to worry about all of this sh#t. If Nissan knew this was a bad product (battery) I want out. We all knew there were limitations and bought assuming we could live with these limitations. What I am reading here is that they put out a defective product. Therefore this is not what I signed up for. I want out.
I love the car and I have not had any issues with it. But reading this thread has me wishing I had made a different decision. If there is a buy out I will take it. Or if there is a new battery swap that fixes this mess I would do that. I will follow thread to see what remedies are forthcoming. Mahalo to all that are working on this problem on MNL. Aloha
2011 Black Leaf SL+QC Vin. 1931
Res. 6-14-10 Order 1-25-11
EVSE: Mod'd Ver. 2 Nissan L1
Delivered 5-31-11

8 years 33000mi. 7 bars

39 Suniva panels 10.3kw with Enphase micro inverters my electricity cost $26 a month.

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ecoobsessive
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Leaf Number: 1725
Location: San Antonio

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:31 pm

downeykp wrote:Ok, now you guys are starting to worry me. I didn't buy my Leaf to have to worry about all of this sh#t. If Nissan knew this was a bad product (battery) I want out. We all knew there were limitations and bought assuming we could live with these limitations. What I am reading here is that they put out a defective product. Therefore this is not what I signed up for. I want out.
I love the car and I have not had any issues with it. But reading this thread has me wishing I had made a different decision. If there is a buy out I will take it. Or if there is a new battery swap that fixes this mess I would do that. I will follow thread to see what remedies are forthcoming. Mahalo to all that are working on this problem on MNL. Aloha

The thing is that we don't know the shape of the capacity loss "curve." If it is steep at first and then flattens, then most of us should be OK. If it's linear, then we are in trouble. Only time will tell if Nissan doesn't tell us.
Martha
Red SL + QC (Finally got first QC on 5/19/19)
solarpowered by 5.52 kW PV with unreliable Enphase microinverters

Stoaty
Posts: 4488
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Leland wrote:Pulled out of the garage this morning for my 4am commute to work and capacity bar #12 was gone. Current odometer 20,165. My wife has been driving the LEAF for the past few weeks and swears they were all there when she parked it last night.....
Added to Wiki. Please file a case with Nissan and report case number and date reported to Nissan for the Wiki. What is your charging pattern? Thanks.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

derkraut
Posts: 1517
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:39 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 004248
Location: San Diego vicinity

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:00 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
="Stoaty"...Note: when I did the graph previously in another thread, I did not plot against annual mileage,which is the correct figure. I believe the current analysis is the correct one...
I don't understand why you have come to that conclusion, since one axis itself is months since delivery.

I wanted to see what might account for the anomalous 24,000 mile one bar loss report, and only then realized it must be the 10 month/20,000 mile report on the Wiki, right?
Stoaty wrote:... here is the latest data on one bar capacity loss in the Phoenix area. Plot is annual mileage vs. months to first capacity bar loss. There are 26 data points.

Slope = -1,274
Intercept = 29,095
Correlation coefficient = 0.51

Interpretation: There is a moderate correlation between annual mileage and number of months to first capacity bar loss. This data suggests that some of the capacity loss may indeed be due to cycling losses rather than calendar losses.

Note: when I did the graph previously in another thread, I did not plot against annual mileage,which is the correct figure. I believe the current analysis is the correct one.

Image
Gee, I wish I knew what you guys are talking about. Is it OK if I just drive and enjoy my car? :roll:
Derkraut
Color: Cayenne SLE, ETEC trim
reserved: 5/15/2010
Leaf del. 6/14/2011
New Traction battery installed on 7/28/2017:

derkraut
Posts: 1517
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:39 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 004248
Location: San Diego vicinity

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:22 pm

stanley wrote:The only people that do well in this type of litigation are the lawyers not the individual or Class they represent. Most litigation is settled. When matters are settled the lawyers get paid for every hour they put in. While the individual plaintiff or Class receives very little. Usually no more and often less than a reputable Company being sued would have worked out informally without a lawsuit. Nissan is a reputable Company and will ultimately do the right thing. The problem is, as with most large Companys,there are so many bureaucratic layers that it takes a while for them to come up with a plan to do what is right.I am confident Nissan will not let their (Billions) in EV investment be diminished by inaction. Hang in there as Tony suggests.
+1. Well said Stanley. IMHO, if some of the hysteria displayed on this forum keeps feeding on its self, and the lawyers get started, we could be responsible for "who killed the Electric Car--Part 2".

Anyway, since I bought mine, no one can take it away from me and crush it. :(
Derkraut
Color: Cayenne SLE, ETEC trim
reserved: 5/15/2010
Leaf del. 6/14/2011
New Traction battery installed on 7/28/2017:

Weatherman
Posts: 916
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:03 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jul 2012
Leaf Number: 20922
Location: Weston, Florida

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:31 pm

downeykp wrote:Ok, now you guys are starting to worry me. I didn't buy my Leaf to have to worry about all of this sh#t. If Nissan knew this was a bad product (battery) I want out. We all knew there were limitations and bought assuming we could live with these limitations. What I am reading here is that they put out a defective product. Therefore this is not what I signed up for. I want out.
My suggestion, for those concerned about the life of their LEAF's battery, is to think of it this way:

1) If you almost always see five bars or less on the battery temperature gage, and it only gets up to six bars a handful of times each summer...

Don't worry about it. Your car's battery is likely to perform far better than the quoted capacity loss of 20% at 5 years and 30% at 10 years. Essentially, you live in an ideal environment for very slow degradation of the battery. Feel free to rack up lots of miles and quick-charge when needed. The battery will, likely, perform very well for a very long time.


2) If you see five bars or less during the winter half of the year and, fairly often, see six bars during the summer half...

You, probably, are going to see the quoted loss (20% loss at 5 and 30% loss at 10). If your driving needs are sufficiently small that you can afford to lose 20% of your range at 5 years and 30% at 10 years, there's, probably, nothing to be concerned about. Of course, if you put a lot of miles on your car, the degradation rate will be faster.


3) If seeing six bars is common for a large part of the year and an, occasional, seventh bar pops up during the summer months...

Don't consider buying. And, only consider leasing if you can handle the possibility of only having 75% of your original range at the end of your lease. Things might be better, or they might be worse, but it's not worth taking the risk to buy the car.


4) If you spend a large part of the summer with seven temperature bars, or more, showing...

It's, probably, best to stay away completely, unless you only need to travel very short distances each day. Only consider a short-term lease, if that. Don't even think about buying. The car's battery (and by extension the car itself) is not likely to be worth much after a few years.



I would consider just about anywhere in western Washington to be in the first group. In other words, there's, likely, nothing to worry about and your car's battery is, likely, to perform very well for a very long time. The handful of times temps get into the 90s for a few hours on a summer afternoon, are not likely to have a significant impact.
2013 Crystal Red Volt
2012 SV Glacier Pearl LEAF; turned in 5/12/2015:18.6K Miles:50.13 AHr:10 bars, 24% gone

opossum
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:40 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 500
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:29 pm

[Queen] Another one bites the dust! [/Queen]

1. 3 bars (dh)
2. 3 bars (rr)
3. 2 bars (mc)
4.   2 bars (mm)
5. 1 bar (tc)
6. 1 bar (rs)
7. 1 bar (pg)
8. 1 bar (cs)
9.     1 bar (sn)
10. 1 bar (js)
11. No known capacity loss. 80% charges, owned 1 year, only 5000 miles driven (em)

So...

91% already lost 1 to 3 bars
9% no known loss w/ 80% charges in 1 year and 5,000 miles

Background: There are 11 people (including my wife) I knew before they purchased Leafs (or met immediately after they purchased their Leafs). I did not meet any of these people *because* they began complaining of capacity/range issues. I simply met them before or immediately after they purchased Leafs. And now, let's check in on those 11 cars (all here in Phoenix) and see whether they have lost any capacity...
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

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