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Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:35 pm
by Stoaty
Guidelines for purchase or lease added to Wiki section on battery capacity:

"Guidelines suggested by Weatherman on whether the Leaf is likely to experience temperature related accelerated battery capacity loss in your area:

If you almost always see five bars or less on the battery temperature gage, and it only gets up to six bars a handful of times each summer... Don't worry about it.
If you see five bars or less during the winter half of the year, and fairly often see six bars during the summer half... You probably are going to see the loss claimed by Nissan (20% loss at 5 years and 30% loss at 10 years).
If seeing six bars is common for a large part of the year, and a seventh bar pops up occasionally during the summer months... Don't consider buying. Lease would be OK.
If you spend a large part of the summer with seven temperature bars or more showing... It's probably best to avoid the Leaf completely. Consider an EV with an active thermal management system or the Chevy Volt."

You can inquire on the forum how many battery temperature bars others who live in your area are typically seeing.

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:40 pm
by thankyouOB
Stoaty wrote:Guidelines for purchase or lease added to Wiki section on battery capacity:

"Guidelines suggested by Weatherman on whether the Leaf is likely to experience temperature related accelerated battery capacity loss in your area:

If you almost always see five bars or less on the battery temperature gage, and it only gets up to six bars a handful of times each summer... Don't worry about it.
If you see five bars or less during the winter half of the year, and fairly often see six bars during the summer half... You probably are going to see the loss claimed by Nissan (20% loss at 5 years and 30% loss at 10 years).
If seeing six bars is common for a large part of the year, and a seventh bar pops up occasionally during the summer months... Don't consider buying. Lease would be OK.
If you spend a large part of the summer with seven temperature bars or more showing... It's probably best to avoid the Leaf completely. Consider an EV with an active thermal management system or the Chevy Volt."

You can inquire on the forum how many battery temperature bars others who live in your area are typically seeing.
i think 6 is fine.

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:27 pm
by Weatherman
thankyouOB wrote:i think 6 is fine.
There's, definitely, a lot of mischief that can hide in that sixth bar.

I'm sure a lot of people will see six bars every summer afternoon and evening, but will it drop to five bars at night. It might even stay at six bars for 24-hours a day for a few days during the summer. Southern California coastal residents can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like that's pretty typical for that area. Anecdotal evidence suggest that, unless you rack up lots of miles in that environment, the battery's probably going to last as long as Nissan claims it's going to last. If that's fine with you, then good.

The real unknown is those of us who see six bars, 24-hours a day, for week, after week, after week (or, in the case of Florida, for month, after month, after month), but rarely if ever see a seventh bar. There is, essentially, no information, yet, as to what happens under those conditions. It might be ok. It might not. That's why I suggested lease-only for that third group.

We already know what happens if the infamous, seventh bar shows up a lot. I don't think there’s any question that if you are seeing seven bars a lot, the battery is degrading relatively quickly, and you have to decide if you can live with that.

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:00 pm
by vrwl
So far since I bought my car in June, I've consistently seen 6 bars and rarely seen a 7th bar and I'm right here in the same area as many of those people in Texas who have lost a bar, so I'll have to agree with Weatherman, there's a lot of mischief that can hide in that 6th bar. I'm not so sure 6 bars is fine.

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:32 pm
by neal77
I'm here in So Cal (inbetween LA and Disneyland) and I have seen 5 tb twice in the morning and the rest of the time has been 6tb. (i have had the car for 1 month now) I'm glad this 2 week heat wave is about over. I hope I will see more 5tb soon. So far I love this car and right now I am kinda sad to think I have to gvie it back in 38 months.

Neal

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:54 pm
by DaveEV
Weatherman wrote:I'm sure a lot of people will see six bars every summer afternoon and evening, but will it drop to five bars at night. It might even stay at six bars for 24-hours a day for a few days during the summer. Southern California coastal residents can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like that's pretty typical for that area.
My car hasn't seen 5 bars in probably 2 months - and then it was only briefly in the morning a couple times. It's probably been 3 months since the battery has held at 5 bars for any significant time.

I live about 4 miles from the ocean.
I work about 7-8 miles from the ocean.

I highly doubt anyone in San Diego has seen 5 bars much in the last 2 months unless they live within a mile of the ocean and park outside, or live further inland where it cools down more at night and they park outside at night.

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:48 am
by Pipcecil
Stoaty wrote:I analyzed the Leafs in Texas that lost a capacity bar, but didn't find a correlation with monthly mileage and rate of capacity (correlation coefficient = 0.013). Perhaps this was due to there being too few Leafs in the sample with a few outliers, or maybe the climate varies enough between the various cities to allow for a meaningful comparison. Interestingly, the average rate of capacity loss was 1.2% per month, similar to the average 1.3% per month seen in the Phoenix metro area sample (latter not previously reported, I believe).
I think you find it more difficult to analyze the Texas data. For example, Houston has a more average temperature being next to the coast, summers don't get as hot elsewhere, but don't get as cool either, getting more of a warm/hot coastal feel. Then when you look at people living in the urban areas of Dallas-Fort Worth/San Antonio/Austin you may get a more localized "heat island" effect versus those living in the surburbs that could see a more cooling since Texas cities are very spread out.

You may be able to get better results if you isolate climate types, i.e. Houston as a costal, DFW as plains, Austin/San Antonio as Hilly Plains (could be similar to DFW) and anywhere out west as Desert/Plains/Scrublands. But, you probably will run into low data at that point. Texas could see similar problems as California in interpreting results. You have nice cool coastal cities, cooler moutain places, and hot desert areas.

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:57 am
by ttweed
drees wrote:My car hasn't seen 5 bars in probably 2 months - and then it was only briefly in the morning a couple times. It's probably been 3 months since the battery has held at 5 bars for any significant time.

I live about 4 miles from the ocean.
I work about 7-8 miles from the ocean.

I highly doubt anyone in San Diego has seen 5 bars much in the last 2 months unless they live within a mile of the ocean and park outside, or live further inland where it cools down more at night and they park outside at night.
I live 3 blocks from the ocean in the coolest microclimate in SD and we have also spent the last several months at predominately 6 TBs. Never seen 7 yet, but 5 bars have not been seen on our car for some time now.

TT

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:21 am
by TomT
The last time I saw 5 bars was about 7 months ago in winter. I did, however, see 7 bars briefly during our heat wave here last week.
drees wrote:My car hasn't seen 5 bars in probably 2 months - and then it was only briefly in the morning a couple times. It's probably been 3 months since the battery has held at 5 bars for any significant time.

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:08 am
by DaveinOlyWA
the "tipping" point between 5 and 6 bars is a hair above room temperature. up until mid July, i always saw 5 bars in the morning. if i charged, i was usually done by 3-5 AM, taking off at 8, temps in garage low to upper 60's.

now, the temp in garage is not much different. mid to upper 60's but temperature during the day (in garage) has gone from low to mid 70's to low to mid 80's and now i am at 6 TBs all the time as well but the telling statistic is how much time it takes to cool down from very warm temps.

the biggest issue i see is the gradient scale. they should have been made the same. having 20 something for one bar and then less than 5 for another means you essentially get no warning until its too late. iow, we are right back to idiot lights. by the time they come on its too late.