pchilds
Posts: 418
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:14 am
Delivery Date: 31 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 006141
Location: SoCal

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:23 am

planet4ever wrote:
pchilds wrote:20% at 5 years is gradual, 20% at 4 months, 5% a month, is not. No traction battery that is at end of life at 2 years has gradual loss.
You are obviously falling into the English language trap that I am warning about. "Gradual" has nothing to do with how fast or slow something happens. It has to do with whether something happens all-at-once or a little bit at a time. Losing 0.2% of your battery capacity is a little bit. But if you lose 0.2% each day you drive the car, you will lose more than 5% in a month, and it would definitely be a gradual loss.

Ray
Be your logic 5% a day would be gradual loss.
2011 LEAF, gone,
2012 RAV4 EV,
2015 Model S 85D,
Solar PV 5.25 kW system.

Herm
Posts: 3765
Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 3:08 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Aug 2012
Location: Timbuktu, Mali

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:07 am

pchilds wrote: Be your logic 5% a day would be gradual loss.
Lawyers and judges often think that way, juries can be convinced to do the same.. damn weasel words!

JRP3
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:04 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:48 am

mark1313 wrote:I wish I had my tape recorder going when they sold me my extended warranty..I specificly ask if it covered the batteries and she said yes..I would not of bought the warranty if it had not coverd the batteries..
It would have been in writing in the extended warranty if it covered the battery. Did you read the extended warranty?

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:55 am

palmermd wrote:
Volusiano wrote:
Herm wrote:The only thing you can do is a complete cycle and recharge, measuring how much energy you put in.. yes this may require 20 hours of charging on 120V and a kill-a-watt meter... or just wait for the software update.
You still have to use the mile/kwh display from the LEAF to make the calculation.
Not true, the L1 charger which has been documented to charge at 78.3% efficient ( http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8583 ) will give you all the information you need. If you put in 20kw then the pack received 15.6kw. So for a new pack you should see 21kw into pack which should pull 26.8kW from the wall.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... start=3370" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have records of 240v 16a charge time to "80%" that I need to look at.

Phil (see link) reports Total Charge Efficiency: 90.9%.

Does anyone have observations of charge efficiency up to an "80%" charge level that differ significantly from Phil's?

If so, what was your methodology?

IIRC, many have reported efficiency in the 85%-90% range, but these often included the lower efficiency charge, from the "80% to "100%" charge level.
Ingineer

...These measurements are all using our Rev2 Upgraded EVSE:

120v: (112.6v recorded at EVSE input)
Standby Power: 1.7w
Charge Power in: 1.436kW
Power to Leaf Battery: 1.125kW
Total Power Lost: 311w
Total Charge Efficiency: 78.3%

240v: (239.8v recorded at EVSE input)
Standby Power: 3.4w
Charge Power in: 3.756kW
Power to Leaf Battery: 3.414kW
Total Power Lost: 342w
Total Charge Efficiency: 90.9%

All these measurements were with the Leaf pack at around 62 degrees F and ~65% SoC. Readings were allowed to stabilize before recording. The power to the Leaf battery was calculated by recording amperage at the cell interconnect level using a high-accuracy kelvin-connected current shunt, so the losses are a sum of all EVSE/Charger/Leaf systems. Charger input power was similarly recorded using lab-grade calibrated true RMS equipment, not a Kill-A-Watt.

These efficiency calculations do not take into account the coulombic loss in the Leaf's battery, and other Leaf systems during discharge, so this is only charging efficiency up to the battery pack itself but not including the pack, of which also has notable loss...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8583" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
no condition is permanent

mksE55
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:10 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 5086
Location: Tyler TX

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:24 am

All we need to convince is a jury , of your peers and most will not be happy that large corporations advertise the longevity and have commercials stating how long they expect it to last and then it fails. Simple , even If I didnt own a leaf, I would say they gave the perception repeatedly vocally, it should last 5 yr to 10 years. This would be a fail in 1 year -2 years the battery is toast. I would have no reservations finding them guilty on all accounts. Classic greedy Corporations cheating the American public every chance it gets. Go back over Automotive cases they loose most if not all the time. which is why lawyers take these cases pro bono. Even taking the GOV. money to fund the failing products. I will be joining in with suit if Nissan fails to stand behind their product. Last Nissan I will own.
Bye Bye Exxon , Shell, Mobil
* 2011 SL
3 bar loss 23,000 mi
in less than 2 yrs
4/14 now 4 bar loss 32,000 just over 2 years

opossum
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:40 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 500
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:08 am

tokenride wrote:Does anyone have any links to official Nissan videos or documents like the one above. I'm trying to gather all the ammo I can for the battle.
Azdre and I captured these two videos, in case Nissan decides to pull them down some day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShtvd5jJHQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/REPORTS ... 10803.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
azdre/opossum, Phoenix, 3/21/11 purchase, 10/2/12 lemon law return.
23k miles, 3 bars lost, officially rated "normal" by Nissan

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:12 am

surfingslovak wrote:Image
Thanks, surfingslovak!

Transcription of this video in case it decides to disappear at some point in the future:

URL: http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DEuGU0mGWc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Title: Nissan LEAF Tour Q&A: Battery Replacement
Uploaded by: nissanusa
Upload date: January 27, 2012
Summary paragraph:
Nissan LEAF Tour Q&A: Battery Replacement YouTube Video uploaded by nissanusa on January 27, 2012 wrote:Nissan LEAF Tour Expert Kate answers a question from our Facebook Page about when the Nissan LEAFs battery will need to be replaced. For more answers to Nissan LEAF questions, visit http://www.facebook.com/NissanLEAF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Video transcription:
Nissan LEAF Tour Q&A: Battery Replacement YouTube Video uploaded by nissanusa on January 27, 2012 wrote:(Fade from black to blue background showing the following words:)
"Nissan LEAF
drive electric tour"
(Words fade out and the following words fade in:)
"When will the LEAF
battery need to be replaced?
- Juan E."
(Switch to a scene of a blonde lady with a Nissan LEAF baseball cap standing outside with a blue Nissan LEAF seen out-of-focus in the background. She is speaking and says the following:)
"The battery pack will NOT have to be replaced after a couple years. In fact, the battery pack's supposed to last AT LEAST 10 years or 100,000 miles. Could be MUCH longer depending on how much you drive."
(Switch back to blue background showing the following words:)
"Join the conversation at
Facebook.com/NissanLEAF"
(Fade to black)
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

azdre
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:28 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:15 am

Nissan already pulled one of those off of their Facebook page recently. Also, I scoured the LEaF page and they have removed all references of battery life expectations.

Stoaty
Posts: 4488
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:24 am

azdre wrote:Nissan already pulled one of those off of their Facebook page recently. Also, I scoured the LEAF page and they have removed all references of battery life expectations.
Looks like they are circling the wagons.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

azdre
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:28 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:27 am

And after reading 10 official definitions of the word gradual from well-respected ( and not so respected dictionaries) there is no way in hell that 0-10 percent in one year followed by 20-30% in 3 months can be gradual.

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