shrink
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Leaf Number: 21842
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:22 am

Herm wrote:Sorry about that shrink, its becoming clearer that charging to 80% wont save you in Phoenix.
Thanks, Herm, but thank you more for the Gozer reference and picture. :D My cat is actually named Gozer and your almost out of the blue reference was very witty and cracked me up! Loved it.
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

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JPWhite
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:49 am

GaslessInSeattle wrote:... really wish we knew if maintaining a lower than 80% SOC was worthwhile...
I've wondered that since I got the car. Am I needlessly limiting my range ina range limited vehicle? Since Nissan went to the trouble of creating a feature and mentioning charge level for long life in the manual I'd comply where possible. In fact as I have gained experience in how far it will go 'per bar' I charge to 100% less often as my experience and confidence level increases regarding practical range.
--
JP White
http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com
2011 Blue SL-e, 132,400 Miles.
Lost 5 Capacity bars
7/18/13 (29,206), 8/25/14 (51,728), 7/12/15 (71.108), 5/12/16 (88,362), 10/17/16 (96,532)
New Battery 12/3/16 (98,956)
2018 Model 3 20,000 Miles.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:20 am

Stoaty wrote:This fits well with the information on the Volt chemistry that 90 degrees is a lot worse for the pack (5 year life expectancy if) than 72 degrees (8 year life expectancy).
This implies that Volts will tend to have similar battery lives. OTOH, LEAFs will experience a wide range of battery life. In fact, I expect that many LEAFs will have much longer-lived batteries than the Volts because their batteries will live at lower temperatures. Time will tell.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

EdmondLeaf
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:30 am

I am not Volt specialist but what I know Volt allow battery temp to be from 18 to 90F and if not plugged or charged TMS will be off on hot day or cold day. Running TMS while driving won't be enough to keep battery at 71, same apply to low temp assuming that car is driven for half electric range each way.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:30 am

EdmondLeaf wrote:I am not Volt specialist but what I know Volt allow battery temp to be from 18 to 90F and if not plugged or charged TMS will be off on hot day or cold day.
I'm certainly not an expert here, either. If 18F is really the lowest target for the Volt TMS, then I am wrong here. But I though it was 50F. If 50F and with a thermal time constant measured in hours, I would expect Volt batteries to live at a much higher average temperature than LEAF batteries in cold climates.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

scottf200
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:04 am

RegGuheert wrote:
EdmondLeaf wrote:I am not Volt specialist but what I know Volt allow battery temp to be from 18 to 90F and if not plugged or charged TMS will be off on hot day or cold day.
I'm certainly not an expert here, either. If 18F is really the lowest target for the Volt TMS, then I am wrong here. But I though it was 50F. If 50F and with a thermal time constant measured in hours, I would expect Volt batteries to live at a much higher average temperature than LEAF batteries in cold climates.
Re: Volt, TMS, and battery temp
From this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... -road-test
... requires its own coolant circuit in order to heat or cool the 288 cells to keep them in the optimal temperature range (32° to 90°F).

SAE article:
Temperature extremes can diminish a battery’s efficiency and rapidly accelerate battery aging, noted Frank Weber, Volt’s enthusiastic and laser-focused Global Chief Engineer who departed the program last year for Opel.

“For example, the delta between 70°F (21°C) and 90°F (32°C) can be critical to battery life,” he asserted. The battery is designed to work while plugged in, at temperatures from -13°F (-25°C) to +122°F (+50°C). The permitted temperature gradient within a battery cell, and from cell to cell, is 5 to 10 K.

A 50:50 glycol mixture is actively circulated through 144 metal “fins” between each of the Volt’s 288 cells. The fins are 1-mm-thick (0.04-in) stamped aluminum plates that conduct heat. The Volt’s pack has five thermal management circuits to handle the multiple subsystems. The system uses multiple electric coolant pumps (12- and 50-W) supplied by Buehler Motor of Germany. The pumps feature brushless dc motors and integrated electronics, and are designed to run extremely quietly, explained Robert Riedford, President of Buehler Motor Inc.
And a very interesting post in the past few days from SH on gm-volt
This morning I drove rather aggressively, and so I was showing 2.4kWh used for my 10.1 mile commute and a battery temp of 82F (outside gauge said 83F) when I parked. When I got in the car after nine hours of high temps increasing to triple digits (car said 106F when I finally started it,) it showed a battery temp of 90F; I'm not positive if the TMS hit the battery - if so it didn't use much power (there's a 1-200 Wh discrepancy with some of the numbers that could be TMS activity,) and the 16 degree delta could be the result of thermal mass and insulation.

The remote start hit the fan hard pretty quickly - for the majority of it the remote start was drawing around 5 kW while it ran, with momentary drops to 2.8/3.0 and an instantaneous peak of 5.4 kW. I could also hear the radiator fan running.

It seemed to prioritize the cabin - the battery didn't change from 90 for the first few minutes - but by the end of the ten minutes the battery showed 84F, clearly showing the battery was being cooled effectively. From the changes to the "battery remaining" calculation off of the reported SoC in the DashDAQ, the remote start used ~650Wh - but when I started the car, is showed 3.2 kWh used (the discrepancy I mentioned; the SoC often has a slight mismatch to the overall use for some reason - it always starts showing 10.2-10.4, but it;ll show zero when the engine kicks on and the car will say 9.9 used.)

When I turned it on, the car was soon hitting the same 5kW in Park; by the end of my drive home even though the fan was at the same speed and the air blowing cold, the draw was down to around 2kW (colder recycled air means less work for the compressor causing the reduced draw?) and the battery average temp was down to 75F.
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RegGuheert
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:16 am

scottf200 wrote:Re: Volt, TMS, and battery temp
From this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/201 ... -road-test
... requires its own coolant circuit in order to heat or cool the 288 cells to keep them in the optimal temperature range (32° to 90°F).
Thanks, Scott! Interesting stuff! 32F sounds like a decent lower target to me. I'll retract my comment based on that. Volt batteries should do fine in cold climates since they will also limit the high-temperature extremes in summertime.

Sorry to take this off-topic. Back to the regularly-scheduled thread...
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

shrink
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:32 am

There was also this article RE: the Volt:

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/gm-tweak ... 46843.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
While GM has milked an incremental gain in energy density, it also reports “tests have revealed less battery degradation,” not that there were known problems before.
I'd say that's in stark contrast to the LEAF, especially in warm climates.
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

EdmondLeaf
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:56 am

I thought a lot about Volt allowing 90F, sure owner have big effect what temp car will be maintained. I will keep it in temp close to 71 as much as possible. If you have TMS you have choice where you want to be concerning battery temp, but my results trying to keep Leaf battery in 71, not driven and not charged, are not very encouraging. I think I will be lucky if I will be able to maintain 85 without AC when heat dome get stacked here next week. I do not understand battery temp gauge. For hot areas, and I guess for all too, 71- 98F (bar 6) seems to be very important segment and will greatly help to maintain car at lower range if one know what temp really is. If one is at the top of the bar, as Stoaty mentioned that battery have a fever. If we will know that battery is approaching fever state, many will apply remedy, unfortunately range of the bar prevent that. I will be much happier if I know what battery temp really is so I will apply medicine as needed. I am very sad that Volt medicine was not included in Leaf

JeffN
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Re: Lost a "high-voltage battery status" bar, down to 11

Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:05 am

Stoaty wrote:This fits well with the information on the Volt chemistry that 90 degrees is a lot worse for the pack (5 year life expectancy if) than 72 degrees (8 year life expectancy).
Where do these Volt chemistry estimates come from? I recall someone writing at a GM-Volt.com forum that GM engineers at a Detroit event with Volt owners unofficially said Volt packs would likely last around 14-15 years in mild temperature areas and 10-13 in hot climates like the Southwest (when reasonable care is taken like parking in shade or leaving connected to an EVSE for TMS).

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