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TickTock
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:12 pm

DANandNAN wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:Personally my take on the current hysteria over the batteries is that I wonder what will happen when the weather cools off this fall and the missing bars come back?
Do you have reports of that happening last year? Some folks have lost 2 bars, surely they would have lost 1 bar last year and then had it reappear as the weather cooled and the battery regenerated. Are there any posts about that?
From October to February last year, I gained back about 2kWh (~10%) capacity so I do think it is possible for someone who is on the edge to get the top bar back, and likely that someone who lost more than one to get one back.

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davewill
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:54 pm

mwalsh wrote:... It is too early to be freaking out. It's a concern, yes. And a bit of a gamble at this point too. But we really do have to wait and see what happens beyond the losses already seen. ...
Actually, this thread shows that people DON'T have to wait and see if they don't want to. It IS a gamble after all. It may be that six months from now, word will have gotten around and there may be a huge depreciation on these lost capacity cars...or it may be no big deal.
2014 Rav4 EV, Blizzard Pearl White
2011 LEAF SL w/QC, Blue Ocean, returned at end of lease

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RegGuheert
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:16 pm

TickTock wrote:From October to February last year, I gained back about 2kWh (~10%) capacity so I do think it is possible for someone who is on the edge to get the top bar back, and likely that someone who lost more than one to get one back.
If it is possible to recover 10% of capacity, then it is conceivable for a LEAF to recover two capacity bars. It will be interesting to see if anyone actually recovers bars or not. I am not aware of any reports of that to date.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

edatoakrun
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:41 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
TickTock wrote:From October to February last year, I gained back about 2kWh (~10%) capacity so I do think it is possible for someone who is on the edge to get the top bar back, and likely that someone who lost more than one to get one back.
If it is possible to recover 10% of capacity, then it is conceivable for a LEAF to recover two capacity bars. It will be interesting to see if anyone actually recovers bars or not. I am not aware of any reports of that to date.
Not to quibble semantics with TickTock, but I doubt his LEAF "gained back" capacity. I think it's far more likely that his LEAFs battery management, allowed him to charge to a higher percentage of the Battery's existing capacity, once climate conditions permitted.

And this would imply that many who have lost a bar, may not have lost a full 15% of battery capacity, but that their own LEAF's may be similarly restricting charge levels, under present hot conditions, to prevent rapid capacity loss.

I don't think you could expect it likely to see reports of any cars gaining significant "gids", much less of having any bars reappear, until this fall, from LEAFs located in the Northern hemisphere.

I'm still waiting for further confirmation of, and more details on, the only (?) "lost two bars" report.
...Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=920" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
no condition is permanent

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RegGuheert
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:03 pm

edatoakrun wrote:I'm still waiting for further confirmation of, and more details on, the only (?) "lost two bars" report.
...Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=920" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That is not the only report anymore. leafkabob posted the following late yesterday:
leafkabob wrote:After I dropped my 12th bar at the end of May, I asked a co-worker with a leaf if she had all 12 bars. She said she had not checked but did get dinged on her annual battery check for charging to 100% too often. Today she called me and said that she is down to 10 bars! :shock:
It seems confirmed that some LEAFs are reporting over 20% capacity loss in 1/4 the amount of time that Nissan stated would be the norm. If the capacity bars function somehow differently than how Nissan has explained them then we should find this out later in the year.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

klapauzius
Posts: 1658
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Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:34 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
Not to quibble semantics with TickTock, but I doubt his LEAF "gained back" capacity. I think it's far more likely that his LEAFs battery management, allowed him to charge to a higher percentage of the Battery's existing capacity, once climate conditions permitted.

And this would imply that many who have lost a bar, may not have lost a full 15% of battery capacity, but that their own LEAF's may be similarly restricting charge levels, under present hot conditions, to prevent rapid capacity loss.
That would be another classical example of how ignorance creates fear....
I am curious though how the bars would come back???
Thermodynamic processes of the kind that degrade the battery are usually irreversible?

If your theory holds (lower capacity bars= temporary temperature dependent battery protection) one would wonder why

a) Nissan would have stated that right away in response to the loss...this would have been such a graceful explanation

b) Last year in Phoenix (when it was hot too) no bars where lost?

Since neither a) nor b) have been confirmed, it seems unlikely that this is the case and bars come back from the dead...

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TickTock
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:49 pm

klapauzius wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
Not to quibble semantics with TickTock, but I doubt his LEAF "gained back" capacity. I think it's far more likely that his LEAFs battery management, allowed him to charge to a higher percentage of the Battery's existing capacity, once climate conditions permitted.

And this would imply that many who have lost a bar, may not have lost a full 15% of battery capacity, but that their own LEAF's may be similarly restricting charge levels, under present hot conditions, to prevent rapid capacity loss.
That would be another classical example of how ignorance creates fear....
I am curious though how the bars would come back???
Thermodynamic processes of the kind that degrade the battery are usually irreversible?

If your theory holds (lower capacity bars= temporary temperature dependent battery protection) one would wonder why

a) Nissan would have stated that right away in response to the loss...this would have been such a graceful explanation

b) Last year in Phoenix (when it was hot too) no bars where lost?

Since neither a) nor b) have been confirmed, it seems unlikely that this is the case and bars come back from the dead...
I agree that we have not established that dropped capacity bars are tied to max gids (available charge), but there was a clear increase in the gids measured for a 100% charge as weather got cooler. If capacity bars *are* tied to max capacity then it is reasonable to expect one or more to come back this fall. It actually appears, based on the slope of the red dots when I started logging, that my level may have been even lower prior to October when I recieved my gidometer. The red dots below are the gids measured for a 100% charge times 80Wh. Blue is the same but for an 80% charge.
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klapauzius
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:56 pm

TickTock wrote: I agree that we have not established that dropped capacity bars are tied to max gids (available charge), but there was a clear increase in the gids measured for a 100% charge as weather got cooler. If capacity bars *are* tied to max capacity then it is reasonable to expect one or more to come back this fall. It actually appears, based on the slope of the red dots when I started logging, that my level may have been even lower prior to October when I recieved my gidometer. The red dots below are the gids measured for a 100% charge times 80Wh. Blue is the same but for an 80% charge.
Interesting...can you make a scatter plot of gids vs. average daily temperature?

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TickTock
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:54 pm

klapauzius wrote:
TickTock wrote: I agree that we have not established that dropped capacity bars are tied to max gids (available charge), but there was a clear increase in the gids measured for a 100% charge as weather got cooler. If capacity bars *are* tied to max capacity then it is reasonable to expect one or more to come back this fall. It actually appears, based on the slope of the red dots when I started logging, that my level may have been even lower prior to October when I recieved my gidometer. The red dots below are the gids measured for a 100% charge times 80Wh. Blue is the same but for an 80% charge.
Interesting...can you make a scatter plot of gids vs. average daily temperature?
Good idea. Here you go based on daily max and min temps according to wunderground.
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klapauzius
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:06 pm

Nice. That looks almost like a linear relationship.
No idea if the chemistry/physics of the battery produce this or if this is an artificial, i.e.
the BMS of the LEAF. If it was the BMS, zombie-bars could be possible....

If that were the case, why has no one lost a bar last summer? Or maybe its a combination of degradation AND the heat induced BMS actions?
You would think that NISSAN has studied the battery under all kinds of conditions, so they should know the things
we find out with our hobby science approach here...So they could just tell everyone about the mechanics of the whole thing
and people would be at least less anxious.

Given the whole layout of the LEAF they apparently think that LESS information is LESS anxiety producing. Which makes an implicit assumption about
the IQ of the user, where I think they might be wrong (at least as far as early adopters go).

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