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turbo2ltr
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:57 am

When the battery is new you don't get what is commonly considered here as "100%". It simply stops charging before reaching full capacity.. During the first 100 or so (guesstimate) cycles, the battery slowly is able to take a charge to it's full capacity.

Yes I observed and have GID records from feb/march of last year when my car was new. Range was effected, very slightly...i.e. "distance until first bar went away" increased a few miles over the first two months of ownership.

edatoakrun wrote:
turbo2ltr wrote:Yeah there is definitely a break in period. Took about 2000 miles for me, but my guess is it's more charge cycle based so YMMV.
I don't understand what you mean by "break in". You are referring to your LEAF, last winter, right?

You had a record of increasing gid or SOC count?

Increasing kWh use for the "100%" charge?

Longer range?

Other?
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edatoakrun
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:35 pm

="turbo2ltr"]...Yes I observed and have GID records from feb/march of last year when my car was new...
Would you please post your gid record results? Both from new, and as observed since?

If your gid count was increasing as the weather warmed up last Spring, it would seem to contradict TickTock's posted results, from later in the year, which seemed to show a very close correlation of highest gid counts with cooler (Arizona). temperatures.

IMO, TickTock's results may indicate BMS regulation of the maximum "100%" charge. If so, lost capacity bars probably do not correspond directly to the level of battery capacity "lost" to degradation.

However, if maximum charge at 100% is affected by temperature, it would seem possible your LEAF allowed higher charge levels (and rising gids) as it experienced the (relatively) cool initial temperatures, back in February '11 which you observed as break-in.

In comparison, I never observed any break-in with my LEAF, in terms of range or battery bar display, in the first months after my (nearly) Summer delivery.
no condition is permanent

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turbo2ltr
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:59 pm

You are confusing two different phenomena.

I believe TickTock's data to be correct and show higher GID at 100% charge with cooler weather. I cannot say if it's the BMS limiting it, or a factor of the chemistry. Maybe someone else knows.

The break in I observed, as have others, is a one time deal when the battery is new. When I first got the car, I would only get up to the 260s. I later observed, I would regularly hit 280. The weather is cool between feb and march and does not change much, unlike between may and june which summer really hits.
In comparison, I never observed any break-in with my LEAF, in terms of range or battery bar display, in the first months after my (nearly) Summer delivery.
I think the amount of change is so small you would not see it unless you were looking for it.
If so, lost capacity bars probably do not correspond directly to the level of battery capacity "lost" to degradation.
My theory is that the lost capacity bars are simply an average of the ending charge GID values. When the average hits the threshold, you lose a bar. This is why I wanted to do tests to charge my car in my A/C'd shop for the next week and see if the bar comes back as clearly I'm right on the threshold. But it would probably cost me hundreds of dollars in power.. heh.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:10 pm

="turbo2ltr"]You are confusing two different phenomena...
No, I'm not confusing them. But I am questioning as to whether the "break in" you observed, is anything other than the BMS at work.
="turbo2ltr"... I believe TickTock's data to be correct and show higher GID at 100% charge with cooler weather. I cannot say if it's the BMS limiting it, or a factor of the chemistry. Maybe someone else knows...
Did you, or other Hot-climate owners observe the same sort of gid results as TickTock, over the same time period?
="turbo2ltr" ...The break in I observed, as have others, is a one time deal when the battery is new. When I first got the car, I would only get up to the 260s. I later observed, I would regularly hit 280. The weather is cool between feb and march and does not change much, unlike between may and June which summer really hits...
So, let's assume, for the moment, that Nissan may have had the foresight to have designed the BMS operation to preserve as much battery capacity as possible over time, consistent with high ambient temperatures, and passive thermal management.

If high states of charge further accelerate battery degradation, in high temperature conditions, the BMS would probably be designed to limit charge levels and gid counts, and would produce gid count results such as those TickTock (as also determined by the underlying trend of capacity loss) has reported.

It is also possible, that LEAF initial charge levels would have also been limited to a relatively low level, such as the 260-something gid level range you initially observed, but allowed to increase over time, to the maximum "safe" level consistent with ambient temperatures.

Do all (low mile) LEAFs show 260-something gids, at delivery??

AFAIK, you are the only one who has gid data from a winter 2011 delivery, but those with winter 2012 deliveries, who recorded initial gid readings, might have similar results, showing a gid increase under cool or cold weather operation.

IF that is what your (and others) gid records show-PLEASE POST!

Did mid-summer 2011 and 2012 delivery hot climate LEAFs, experience the same sort of gid increase, from the 260-something to 280 range, during the initial post-delivery period, as your LEAF did? If so, the 2011s could not have experienced the (winter) seasonal gid increases, that TickTock has reported...correct?
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turbo2ltr
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:48 pm

Maybe I'm tired, but I find your posts difficult to follow.

I haven't looked at his data, but as far as I'm concerned, any increase as it got cooler wasn't a "seasonal winter increase" it was a "recovery from a summer decrease".

All I know:
Hot temperatures reduces the ability of the battery to store a charge.
My car did NOT charge to 280 for the first couple months. I am quite sure I remember others reporting this as well.

I'll leave the speculation up to you.
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Caracalover
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:16 pm

leafkabob wrote:
jspearman wrote:Thanks for the thoughtful post, Shrink. I am in a similar boat, since this is my wife's daily driver and she is reluctant to trade the car for another. Are there any women on this forum?

I'm interested to see what kind of depreciation that car dealers assign to the loss of bars after trading electric cars becomes more common. I think you are right that they likely had no idea what they were looking at, except a shiny electric car with low mileage. I think we will hang on until Nissan proposes some kind of solution.
Same boat here too. Our Leaf is my wife's daily driver and she is very reluctant for me to push Nissan to any resolution that would cause her to lose the leaf. She said the thought of going back to an ICE turns her stomach. It does me too, which makes this a real quandry.
I have to wonder how many of us bought the car and will keep it for ten years, knowing the range is going to decrease year after year?

I know I did. The OP shrink claims he keeps cars until they stop running, but has two new cars - just an observation, not an accusation of anything - one of which is now a lease, rather than keeping a car that had some loss of range. Great dealing BTW Shrink, sounds like you saved the fuel costs of 10K miles and now have the deal that makes you a happy household. I have to wonder if you will opt to buy although you have no intention of doing so now.

For my daily driving the Leaf could have 50% of the capacity and still be very useful. I do push the capacity once a week, so I do not like the idea of losing range, but the possiblitiy/probability of an affordable upgrade from Nissan or another source makes me think that it may be a temporary difficulty, rather than a permanent one. I also have solar power production in excess, so my driving is currently free - hard to grasp that most of the time.

So for those of us that don't use the whole battery every day, is this really an issue to have us do what shrink did, or will we still be exstatic to be driving electric, albiet for less distance at one time?

Shrink, what made you pull the trigger on your first Leaf if you normally only charged to 80%? Seems like the loss of range was a worry, not a real concern.
26,000 miles on Silver Leaf
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Volusiano
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:48 pm

I'm guessing that because Shrink decided to dump his purchased Leaf but still went for a new leased Leaf, it's apparent that the first bar capacity loss is not crucial for him, because he must already have assumed that by next summer, his leased Leaf will have lost its first capacity bar just like his first one.

I'm guessing that it's more of a vote of confidence, saying that while I like your car, Nissan, I don't trust you as a car company anymore. So I'm still doing what's best for me (making good use of your product and technology), but now I have a way out and will dump your car and your company without any slightest hesitation at the end of my lease if I don't see improvement/resolution to the situation.

I think it's this new distrust that's going to be most damaging to Nissan if they don't figure out a way to repair it soon.

jspearman
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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:09 pm

We did plan to keep our Leaf, and I've owned enough battery-powered electronics to know that the range would decrease over time. I did, however, base my purchase on the figures promoted by Nissan, which seemed reasonable and acceptable. If I lived in a cooler or smaller town I might be less concerned, but Phoenix is huge, and if I can't charge our car in a hot parking lot in 112 degree temps because I'm afraid of ruining the battery, then the car's true utility is vastly diminished.

One of the reasons I wasn't as worried about range was because of our decent charging infrastructure, but almost all of these chargers are out in the open. Also, there's simply no way I am going to quick charge our car in the summer when our car is never dipping below 7 bars.

I've thought a lot about taking the same course as Shrink these past few days, but Nissan is not inspiring a great deal of confidence right now. Hope they get their act together soon.

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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:05 am

jspearman wrote:We did plan to keep our Leaf, and I've owned enough battery-powered electronics to know that the range would decrease over time. I did, however, base my purchase on the figures promoted by Nissan, which seemed reasonable and acceptable. If I lived in a cooler or smaller town I might be less concerned, but Phoenix is huge, and if I can't charge our car in a hot parking lot in 112 degree temps because I'm afraid of ruining the battery, then the car's true utility is vastly diminished.

One of the reasons I wasn't as worried about range was because of our decent charging infrastructure, but almost all of these chargers are out in the open. Also, there's simply no way I am going to quick charge our car in the summer when our car is never dipping below 7 bars.

I've thought a lot about taking the same course as Shrink these past few days, but Nissan is not inspiring a great deal of confidence right now. Hope they get their act together soon.
I am a little confused by this response.

You never dip below 7 bars and you have a concern over total range? Is this a fix that you require, or something you are rightfully concerned about, but has no real impact on your life (IE: value of use to you) at this time?

Nissan is figuring out what works and how to improve the product, and some of us are going to be impacted by what they don't know yet. Should they fix what really isn't broken, at least for you and the way you utilize the vehicle?

I have 18,000 miles and no discernable issues yet. The SOC (I don't have a GID meter, nor do I see the need) does seem to vary so I drive a little slower when I need more range. I expected that when I bought it. I commonly use about half the battery daily, starting with an 80% charge (30% or so when done). I do take it into high temp areas weekly (Mojave dessert), and with the knowledge gained from these experiences I am altering my charging routine to top off closer to when I am leaving - other than that no impact on my love for this car, and Nissan in general.

Should they opt to start changing out batteries and calling this an issue, it could erode confidence in a product that is really outstanding in so many ways. If it actually impacts your life, I can see the reasoning, but if it is not an issue?

I have to admit I like the idea of used Leaf's on the market, so by all means lease if that is what will make you more comfortable - Nissan has not removed that choice in AZ, so they still have confidence in the product as it stands now. The used car market is the only way many will be able to afford this car so if you want to follow in Shrink's footsteps, go for it! When someone buys Shrinks used leaf at an inflated price, they will still be thrilled to be driving electric - and may never know about this issue at all, since it will still meet most of the driving needs we all have.
26,000 miles on Silver Leaf
wildcatzoo.org drive there on Sunday across a big mountain, sorry no public charging at this time.
Looking for grants to put in solar port so perhaps in the future...

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Re: Turning Over a New LEAF: My Response to a Lost Capacity

Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:11 am

Volusiano wrote:I'm guessing that because Shrink decided to dump his purchased Leaf but still went for a new leased Leaf, it's apparent that the first bar capacity loss is not crucial for him, because he must already have assumed that by next summer, his leased Leaf will have lost its first capacity bar just like his first one.

I'm guessing that it's more of a vote of confidence, saying that while I like your car, Nissan, I don't trust you as a car company anymore. So I'm still doing what's best for me (making good use of your product and technology), but now I have a way out and will dump your car and your company without any slightest hesitation at the end of my lease if I don't see improvement/resolution to the situation.

I think it's this new distrust that's going to be most damaging to Nissan if they don't figure out a way to repair it soon.
Did you get a Leaf last year?
26,000 miles on Silver Leaf
wildcatzoo.org drive there on Sunday across a big mountain, sorry no public charging at this time.
Looking for grants to put in solar port so perhaps in the future...

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