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TonyWilliams
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:35 am

thankyouOB wrote: equating this with the WMD and war with Iraq is just too much.
please.
A bit of a stretch there!!!! I confident that most folks understand the reference (and it wasn't about WMD equals LEAF !!!)

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:40 am

OrientExpress wrote:
eHelmholtz wrote:Nissan has not shown appropriate support for it's early adopters!
Why would you say that?
Sure they have!!! They'll just tweek that faulty software you heard about, and we'll all be singing "All Hail Nissan" any day now, right? In the mean time, we just charge more.

It's all covered.


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OrientExpress
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:35 am

2
Last edited by OrientExpress on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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surfingslovak
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:53 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that this is as much a business challenge as it is an engineering challenge. I don't presume to know how to address this issue better than Nissan executives, but let's have a look at the Volt community. The vocal supporters there are unanimous about GM's decision to offer buy-backs to dissatisfied owners in the wake of the Volt fire risk, which broke the news earlier this year. I believe that both the patient and the impatient owners were helped by that announcement and surprisingly few have exercised this option. Moreover, it demonstrated that the manufacturer is committed to the product and will do what it takes to make it successful, which was likely as important as acquiescing dissatisfied owners. Given the trajectory the discussion has taken on this forum and elsewhere, it might be appropriate to reflect on the situation.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:00 am

OrientExpress wrote:Well granted this owners group does seem to have a few more very vocal and seemingly hysterical schizophrenic ADD owners than other marques :D , but on the whole, they don't represent the vast majority of LEAF owners.
You appear to be a doctor now, making a diagnosis. Listen, obviously MOST LEAF owners don't know or care about something that doesn't affect them directly. That's the human existence. You're a good example. You have your car that is working well for you, and you're obviously happy with it, and it's just tough doo doo for those that don't have the same.
A few owners have an issue with their car, it has not met their expectations, and because of that they are frustrated and for whatever reason are unable to deal with the situation and would rather freak out.
Honestly, people are "freaking out"? Your continued, for lack a of better term, lap dog status with Nissan is troubling to me. Your earlier comment of there not being a problem because people could just "charge more" is the very epitome of lap dog status, in my view. The software glitch idea, while certainly reasonable to discuss and attempt to rule out or prove, is just that. An idea or theory. Folks have commented on it. Personally, I don't think software is the issue for all the reasons others have stated. That doesn't mean that Nissan won't state that since, let's face it, software will cost them next to nothing, and lithium batteries exposed to over 120F/50C in a Phoenix asphalt parking lot would NEVER cause a problem.

But, the real problem with your continued attacks and name calling (and medical diagnosis) against folks who don't follow your lap dog thinking process brings discredit to any rational thought you may possess. Honestly, I don't think you're swaying anybody here, and it's your approach (well, and the message).
Speculation is rampant, and facts are few. Some have taken to public forums such as this one to fan the flames of discontent in a very trollish manner, and have played right into the hands of those that would prefer for the BEV movement to fail.
Indeed, your own speculation, no doubt, is not included. You may wish to look in the mirror for those "trolls". I will admit, however, that the Teabagging idiots will use anything against BEV's, of that I am certain. Which seems to imply that we should just shut up and let things play out. Hey, that might work. Or it might not.
Others have tried to understand the problem, and enjoy the challenge, much like playing fantasy football. Their tools are limited and what they are investigating is not well understood, but it certainly is fun to try to figure this out in a positive way, and there are several hypothesis that have been brought forth that are reasonable and possible. When the fix is implemented by Nissan, it will be interesting to see how many had a dog that could hunt.
Yes, the folks who actually put in the leg work for understanding certainly are not you.
Meanwhile Nissan has acknowledged that there is an issue and is bringing the full weight of its engineering resources and expertise world-wide to understand what is happening and provide a solution to the issue and to improve their products moving forward. These things take time resolve properly, but for many that is not good enough and demand immediate satisfaction. That lack of patience is disappointing because for every one of those that are vocal advocates of dissatisfaction, there are 600 that are satisfied with their cars or are patient enough and confident enough that Nissan will resolve this. I myself are one of the 600.
Yes, we know, you got yours, and happen to live in a place that won't have serious battery issues from heat. We know. You tell us a lot. Congrats.

I don't honestly believe that most people reading any of this expect a speedy solution, should there ever be one. Quite the opposite, in fact. But, you keep believing that. Maybe pump out your chest a little with indignation.
Other than assigning wet nurses to the most vocal and impatient of those that are dissatisfied, it is hard to say what more than can be done.
Thank you for being the "tool" that every forum needs. I'd recommend putting me on your ignore list, because you are an absolute waste of internet space.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:12 am

surfingslovak wrote: The vocal supporters there are unanimous about GM's decision to offer buy-backs to dissatisfied owners in the wake of the Volt fire risk, which broke the news earlier this year.
I think that has come up on this forum several times earlier, and while I think that is a logical approach for Nissan, there are key fundamental differences between the two events.

GM knew, and forcefully pursued that there wasn't anything wrong with the car. Heck, the put Bob Lutz (who was not even a GM employee anymore) on Faux Noose. It was beautiful.

In addition to forceful pushback, knowing there wasn't a real issue, they also offered Volt owners to swap out their cars. In addition, they did a voluntary recall to upgrade some hardware to the battery structure.

Nissan has done none of that. Will they? I can only hope.

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spike09
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:25 am

Welcome to the dark side of the auto industry!

Don't forget Chevy was not really that forthcoming with the battery pack fire risk. They informed the public of the problem only after the government started a safety defect investigation. The NHTSA informed them about the problem in June 2011. Chevy did nothing until the NHTSA opened a formal safety defect investigation on Nov 25. They kept the problem hidden for 6 months and were lucky no actual real-world incidents occurred. It took them over a month to come up with a fix for a serious safety issue.

The comparison between the Volt serious safety issue to the Leaf battery capacity loss is weak. A better comparison of the Chevy Volt fires would be to the Fiskar Karma fires, although the battery pack does not seem to be issue with the Karma.

It does not seem the Leaf issues even qualify as a defect under the Lemon Law! Perhaps we need specific EV legislation to address Battery Capacity issues!
Last edited by spike09 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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OrientExpress
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:25 am

I really don't see the Volt fire episode (and the buyout offer) and this one being similar. The Volt issue was a perceived safety one that had an the possibility of fire in it, whereas the LEAF issue is not.

In all industry product satisfaction cases where there is an element of danger because of a fire, it is standard practice to offer to buy back or exchange the product. That is not the typical response in a "your mileage may vary" issue.

But still, essentially all of the options that are available to any vehicle owner that are dissatisfied with their car are on the table for LEAF owners.

They can:
Let the manufacturer fix the problem
They can sell or trade-in the car for another one
They can take advantage of their states Lemon Law statutes to recover a pro-rated amount of their investment in the car
They can attempt litigation

While I am not a "tool" of Nissan, I do understand how the process of resolving an issue such as this works, and again I have full confidence that Nissan will resolve this issue in a fair and equitable manner, and will use it as a learning experience to improve their EV products.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:59 am

="OrientExpress"]... I have full confidence that Nissan will resolve this issue in a fair and equitable manner, and will use it as a learning experience to improve their EV products.
Well, I may not be as confident as you are, but I do expect that Nissan will probably announce efforts that should satisfy most legitimate complaints.

I am, unfortunately, much more confident that whatever Nissan announces as to what actually is going on with LEAF battery capacity, and what proposals it will make to alleviate consumer complaints, some members of this forum will continue their hysterical ranting.

I am most concerned that Nissan might alter future BEV sales plans, after concluding that American BEV buyers simply are incapable of understanding the trade-offs, in battery life, and battery use, of vehicle batteries, and cannot exercise judgement in their driving and charging habits, to get their own particular optimum use from their batteries.

Nissan and other BEV manufactures may even move to "idiot-proof" future EV designs for the American market, and take much the same approach GM did with the Volt.

And I would find this outcome quite possibly a much greater disappointment, a few years from now, than if my LEAF loses capacity somewhat faster than I expected, when I bought it.
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