KtG
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:19 pm

Consult can display the firmware part number for any module on any other car without re-programing, I dont know why LEAF would be any different.

Also, while the printing of data for the file is great and all, do we know if the techs working on these cars have been calling Techline so that they can use Citrix to connect to the dealer's toughbook and use the admin mode of Consult to pull 'super-secret' data for the engineers?

I have not seen the complaints this thread is about on another car, but im in a small-town dealer in central IL. We've only sold like 10 cars in the last year, and aside from the recalls the only thing ive had to do was replace 1 onboard charger.

saintyohann
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:01 pm

Just a followup, I did file with BBB's Autoline and started a case. Someone at Nissan called me two days later. Nissan is sending a dealer rep to check out the car on the 13th. Sounds more like they want him to run "the tests" to say there's nothing wrong, instead of sending an engineer to find out what's wrong.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:02 pm

saintyohann wrote:Just a followup, I did file with BBB's Autoline and started a case. Someone at Nissan called me two days later. Nissan is sending a dealer rep to check out the car on the 13th. Sounds more like they want him to run "the tests" to say there's nothing wrong, instead of sending an engineer to find out what's wrong.
What is wrong?

saintyohann
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:07 pm

Tony, see the first post of this thread.

bradbissell
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Leaf Number: 404629
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:26 am

Nice sarcasm Tony. Saintyohann, according to Nissan, there is nothing wrong so why would they send someone out to verify something they already "know".
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Ingineer
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Leaf Number: 6969
Location: Berkeley, California
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:41 pm

Here are some points:

There is no way the firmware reflash "went wrong" or is corrupt. The images are encrypted and signed in such a way that if even one bit is altered it will not flash. If the flash memory in the ECU had failed in such a way to alter it's code, the checksum algorithm would catch it and it would hard fault.

The dealer computer tool (Consult III+) will not allow a firmware regression, nor will it "reflash". (even if this could help) It's basically automatic, and out of the dealer's control. Only Nissan Engineering with special development access can manually perform any ECU flashing/reading.

Consult III+ will list all firmware versions (ECU part #'s).

While the reverse lockout problem is indeed an apparent firmware bug, and Nissan is likely very aware of it, these other problems sound like something else. My bet is one of the devices on the CAN bus is flaky and creating errors on that bus which is causing the strange intermittent symptoms. As pointed out, simple module swapping would eventually correct the problem, but a detailed CAN analysis would probably reveal the problem pretty fast. However, Dealer techs are not able to do more than basic go/no-go testing using Consult III+. This would require a visit from the Nissan Engineering Team. It may be that because they have already labelled this case the "known reverse incline lockout bug", they are ignoring further information that is indeed a new and different problem.

Keep in mind most customers are poor at providing good information and there are also many layers between a customer and someone at Nissan that is an actual Engineer, so it's not surprising that this is happening. Most customers simply make a bunch of noise and are poor sources of information, so Dealer Techs and even Nissan corporate learn to generally filter much of what is heard and form their own opinions which means even if you know what you are talking about, and give good information, you will probably not really be heard.

So in summation: There may be a small known problem with the reverse lockout thing, and I'm sure Nissan will fix it in an upcoming firmware update, but they are very careful about updating code, and only do it after many, many hours of testing. Don't expect fixes any more than once a year at best unless it's a total emergency. I do not think this problem is a firmware-related issue, and while it coincided with the update, I do not believe regressing to an old version (even if it were possible) would fix this. I'm fairly confident it will need module replacement. It's possible there was something as trivial as an ESD (Electro-static discharge) that might have damaged a module. (Maybe while in the Dealer's care for the update)

I would persist with the Lemon Law claim to force them to act on this. It's inexcusable, and this combined with how Nissan has been treating the Phoenix battery issue definitely lowers my opinion of them. I am very dismayed and disappointed in this kind of surprising poor performance from a Major Japanese automaker. I hope they step up soon.

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Stoaty
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:16 pm

Ingineer wrote:While the reverse lockout problem is indeed an apparent firmware bug, and Nissan is likely very aware of it...
I don't recall anyone else reporting this bug, is it a known problem that others have encountered?
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surfingslovak
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:26 pm

Stoaty wrote:
Ingineer wrote:While the reverse lockout problem is indeed an apparent firmware bug, and Nissan is likely very aware of it...
I don't recall anyone else reporting this bug, is it a known problem that others have encountered?
I saw something weird shortly after getting the update. I didn't realize that it could be related then, and I haven't seen other reports anywhere.

saintyohann
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:02 pm

I spoke with a Nissan rep and a Leaf tech (corporate not deanship tech) on 9/13 and they went over all the times the car had been in and found something from my April visit. They found two codes (out of 2.5 pages of codes) related to an interlock? system. The tech also said he wished the dealership would have sent them the codes back then so I wouldn't have deal with this for so long. And now they had something to go on.

Cut to later that afternoon, I got a call back with more questions from the corporate leaf tech. The last question was "how often does it happen." When I told him it was about every three weeks, he straight out said, "well we're not going to be able to recreate that." Basically I was told they don't see anything wrong so there's nothing to repair and they weren't going look any longer. When I chimed in that I had photos and video of these occurrences, the Nissan rep came on and said to give him to this afternoon to come up with something. It's the end of business, he hasn't called and isn't answering his phone.

At this point even if they could fix the car I don't want to own anything with the Nissan name on it.

I'm still scheduled as a guest for a National Plugin Day event, but really I don't think I could get through it without totally venting on Nissan in front of the crowd. I think I should cancel and keep my mouth shut.

NissanTech375
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Re: Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:37 pm

Do you have a mobile phone charging device installed in a power port of this car?
Do you have a building security pass chip device on your key ring or on your person?
Do you have music stored on a flash drive/chip attached to the car?

If you have any of these devices, keep them away from your car and see what happens.

I've seen this issue.
I don't steer the canoe, I just paddle.

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