spooka
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Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:38 pm
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Leaf Number: 004917

Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:51 pm

My 10 bar Leaf is available and willing.

If we are meeting in Chandler, I'd have to QC before the test since I would be driving about 45 miles to get to the meetup site. Not sure if that would be an issue. I'd probably be at 7 bars on the temp gauge and it would most likely stay there all day. I have no technology to measure anything and would need help with that. I am beyond due for my annual battery check and if I do it over the next few weeks, I would think that would be close enough to count for the test's purposes.

If the need for a QC takes me out of the mix, let me know.

Does anyone have the details on Scott's car regarding why Nissan is allowing him to return it? Curious about that!

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:56 pm

spooka wrote:My 10 bar Leaf is available and willing.

If we are meeting in Chandler, I'd have to QC before the test since I would be driving about 45 miles to get to the meetup site. Not sure if that would be an issue. I'd probably be at 7 bars on the temp gauge and it would most likely stay there all day.
All the cars need to arrive at the test start the night before, for an early morning test. Every car needs to be at the same temperature. If your car can't be delivered the evening before, it won't participate in any test that I administer.

I don't want to put a bunch of effort into a project that has loopholes and exceptions. Every car will have everything, as much as is humanly possible, identical, EXCEPT the condition of the battery.

Volusiano
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Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:11 pm

I would propose that we use the PADT site at the south west corner of 101 and Elliot that has a free QC as the assembly point. Beside the QC station, they also have 2 L2 charger there. This way, people who don't want to have to pay to use the Blink L2 station can use the Blink QC station for free.

We can use this location as both the depature point and the arrival point for the test.

This location is right next to the freeway 101. I would propose we use the freeway to do the test because
1. It can help reduce the test time since driving on the freeway will burn up the energy faster.
2. It can help make the driving test more consistent because there won't be many traffic lights interfering with the uniformity of the test.

shrink
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 21842
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:15 pm

spooka wrote:My 10 bar Leaf is available and willing.

If we are meeting in Chandler, I'd have to QC before the test since I would be driving about 45 miles to get to the meetup site. Not sure if that would be an issue. I'd probably be at 7 bars on the temp gauge and it would most likely stay there all day. I have no technology to measure anything and would need help with that. I am beyond due for my annual battery check and if I do it over the next few weeks, I would think that would be close enough to count for the test's purposes.

If the need for a QC takes me out of the mix, let me know.

Does anyone have the details on Scott's car regarding why Nissan is allowing him to return it? Curious about that!
It doesn't have to be Chandler. I live in central Phoenix myself. I just suggested that location because it has 6 L2's. Assuming the antique shop is okay with it, I figured we could use all 6 to get 100% charges overnight in their lot. A QC is about 3-4 miles northwest of that location for travel back home, and there are two more QC's en route back to central PHX and the north/northwest valley - Riverview Toyota and Camelback Toyota. South of Chandler there are also uncrowded 2-lane highways in the desert, along the Gila reservation.

A more central location could be Rio Salado Tempe - near I-10 and 143. They have 7 L2's, but if we all arrive back at LBW, VLBW, or turtle, we'll all have to sit there for a couple hours longer to get home. I don't know of any great routes originating from that area either.

Another option may be the area of Central and Camelback in Phoenix. There are 4 L2's and the Days Inn at 7th Ave and Camelback and two at Hulu's restaurant on Central, just south of Camelback. The latter, however, are often ICE'd. From there, people can QC to get home about 2 miles East at Camelback Toyota. I think a few of us LEAF owners live within a few miles of that area, too.

If we end up in Chandler and you don't mind dropping your car there overnight, I'm centrally located and might be able to get you (and others) home and back for the AM test. That's why I have a Volt :)

Let me know if anyone has any thoughts or better ideas. I'm off the top of my head here...
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

shrink
Posts: 360
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 21842
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:19 pm

Volusiano wrote:I would propose that we use the PADT site at the south west corner of 101 and Elliot that has a free QC as the assembly point. Beside the QC station, they also have 2 L2 charger there. This way, people who don't want to have to pay to use the Blink L2 station can use the Blink QC station for free.

We can use this location as both the depature point and the arrival point for the test.

This location is right next to the freeway 101. I would propose we use the freeway to do the test because
1. It can help reduce the test time since driving on the freeway will burn up the energy faster.
2. It can help make the driving test more consistent because there won't be many traffic lights interfering with the uniformity of the test.
I posted before reading this. Great points, but if we start there and they only have 2 L2's, it'll be hard for all of us to be @ 100% when charging. I think we want to avoid a QC pre-test.

Also, good point about the freeway. Do we want that at 65 mph or the 2 lane highways at 45 mph?
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

Volusiano
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:41 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:28 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
Volusiano wrote:Can you give an outline of what will be done in a 2 hour test?

Also, I know that Nissan requires and therefore pays for the annual battery test. But if you already had the annual battery test and now simply wants another battery test for your own purpose, will Nissan dealerships be willing to perform it for free?
Basically, everything I've posted many times on this forum. I'll repost here

If you can't get a free test, and don't want to pay, then just don't do it.
Below is what you proposed for the test in the other thread. I see a number of issues with it.

First of all, where are we going to find 3 new LEAFs off the dealer lot to use as control cars? Even if we can find them, one may be a newly arrived car, another might have been sitting around the dealership's parking lot for the last 3-6 months in the heat at 100% charge. So they won't have uniform batteries to begin with. The only relatively new LEAF I can see using in Phoenix is Shrink's, but it's not brand new off the lot though.

Secondly, you want to drive the suspect car 5 times for the whole length of 70 miles each time. That's not going to be done in 2 hours. That's going to require the testing to be spread out in 5 days because the suspect car has to start out in the exact same condition each time, meaning early in the morning when the battery temperature has settled down.

Thirdly, in order for the test to have some kind of legitimacy, there has to be an independent 3rd party performing the test drive and not the owners or somebody biased to either side. This independent third party must have some kind of credibility in the first place (the news media maybe?), and everything has to be thoroughly documented by this independent party, and not by us.

Fourthly, it'll take time to organize and find an independent third party, propose a driving test that the third agrees to that it's fair, set up process and procedure, etc, including documentation, participants, maybe even invite media coverage. It's not going to happen by 9/15.

So while I'm game with getting together and do the test, I think we must organize it more thoroughly instead of rushing into it in 1 week time and at the end not be able to lend credibility to our data because there's lack of an independent 3rd party participation.

Also, I'm a little confused by the proposed test below. For each car to yield an end results in number of miles, that means that the end reference has to be LBW or VLBW or something like that, right? Does that mean that it has to be a long enough route, and all test cars will not complete the whole route because some cars will get to LBW before others. Which is fine, but what are cars going to do when they don't arrive at the destination before they reach LBW and need a charge?

That's why I asked for an outline of the proposed test drive here so we can review it exactly.
TonyWilliams wrote:Now, drive the "control" cars (new LEAFs off the dealer lot) under these specific guidelines from that post ^^^ up there.

You'll get:

New Car A - 84.5 miles
New Car B - 86.2 miles
New Car C - 85.4 miles

Then drive the suspect car, on EXACTLY the same course in EXACTLY the same conditions... do it 5 times:

Suspect Car
Drive 1 - 72.3 miles
Drive 2 - 71.3 miles
Drive 3 - 69.8 miles
Drive 4 - 70.0 miles
Drive 5 - 71.2 miles

gascant
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Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:41 pm

So what is this test going to demonstrate?
2011 LEAF SL brilliant silver + QC
DRL's, Seat Heaters, Horn, LEDs and EVSE upgrades
Over 24,300 miles gas-free
http://sfbayleafs.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:14 pm

All good points, that we will have to work through. The rush is because Scott must turn in his car on Sat, Sept 15, and that is the primary car I wish to test.

We will use climate control off, as there are too many variables there, and I suggest as level highway as can be found in your area. I recommend strongly that this be an "out and back" test on the freeway at either 60mph or 62mph (100kmh). So, the site suggested with 6 L2 EVSE's near a freeway is awesome (sorry, I don't know the area well, but I was at my son's house in San Tan Valley in July).

Battery temperature is easy to match, because every car will be sitting overnight at the same spot.

The same vehicle weight between the cars and dry road conditions. We don't need to measure, but just ensure one car doesn't have different loads than the others. Hopefully, every car will have a Gidmeter.

The freeway will be perfect early Saturday morning to maintain a steady speed. To compensate for any wind and to compensate for elevation variations (you absolutely will be returning to the same elevation when you pull back into the starting point at the end of the test), I recommend 40-ish miles out, and return of 40-ish miles in the opposite direction, all at 60mph / 62mph for a new-ish car. How do we know it's new-ish? It can charge to 275 or greater Gid.

You need to reset your odometer and miles/kWh economy meter on the dash at the beginning of your run, but don't then reset this data until you've collected the data at the end of the test. You should use the Nav economy meter (which reads 0.1 high with the present firmware) to get steady speed data. Get your car at the stable target speed and then reset the Nav economy meter while at that target speed to (hopefully) get the target miles/kWh at that speed.

For instance, while on the outbound 40-ish mile leg, at 60mph with cruise control, hit reset on the Nav economy screen reset, and at the end of a continuous 40-ish miles while still at 60mph, expect to see 4.0 miles/kWh on that meter before you start slowing down to reverse course. Then subtract 0.1 to match the console date, to get 3.9 miles/kWh.

Then do the same on the return run. Get to speed, then reset Nav economy gauge, and read the result at the end BEFORE you change the speed. Again, if there's any wind, or elevation changes, or both, you'll get two different numbers for each direction. Again, do not reset the dash economy meter until you've recorded that data for the entire trip, from 100% charge to Turtle mode. Naturally, the dash miles/kWh number won't match your two way averaged 60mph Nav data (even when corrected -0.1), since you weren't driving 60mph the entire trip.

Its not so important to note fuel bars (but you can) as they are a variable In energy capacity per unit. For instance, the fuel bars will show 12 units at "100%" charge, even if the battery is -20C with 50% degradation. Important "hard data" landmarks are the mileage readings at Low Battery Warning, Very Low Battery, and subsequently Turtle. You don't need to drive the car to dead, just Turtle mode.

Check the tire pressure before a run! 36psi is recommended, and all cars will be run at 36 psi. Reset both economy meters and odometers. We will not attempt this on a windy day. Do NOT use the GoM (that's just dumb) and all GoM's should be covered.

BALANCE THE BATTERY CELLS FIRST!!! That means, we will charge to 100% and let the car sit for up to 4 hours after the car reaches 100% while still plugged in. Or, if you observe a top off charge between one and four hours after reaching 100%, you can then consider the cells balanced (as much as is possible). You don't have to do anything else. The LEAF's automation will take care of all the dirty work.

Checklist before the data collecting run:

1. Any changes to car from stock (all cars need the same tires, with no bike rack, Texas cattle horns, etc)
2. Tire pressures set at 36, heater and air conditioning off, car at 100% charge, cells allowed time to balance
3. Gross vehicle weight? 3350 pounds plus operator, passengers, spare tire, bags, concrete, etc
4. All cars will drive the same route (dry, concrete/asphalt, etc)
5. Assumed or measured battery temp (ATIS reports from local airports for official temperatures)
6. -N/A-
7. Gid count at start, if available
8. -N/A-
9. Starting total voltage (should be 393.5v from GidMeter)

Data to record:

1. Outbound steady speed (confirm with cruise control on)
2. Outbound observed steady speed miles/kWh from Nav adjusted -0.1
3. Inbound steady speed (confirm with cruise control on)
4. Inbound observed steady speed miles/kWh from Nav adjusted -0.1
5. Miles at Low Battery Warning
6. Miles at Very Low Battery
7. Overall miles covered to Turtle
8. Overall miles/kWh from dash economy display
9. Calculated battery useable energy (miles / miles/kWh = battery kWh)
10.Ending pack voltage, and Gid (350v-ish from GidMeter)

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:15 pm

gascant wrote:So what is this test going to demonstrate?
September 4, 2012- Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the LEAF. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.

Andy Palmer holds global responsibility for product planning, program management, market intelligence, IS, marketing communications and corporate planning, including in a leadership role for the zero-emissions business unit during the development of the Nissan LEAF.

September 15, 2012- In response to Andy Palmer's comments, some of the Phoenix cars, including Scott Yarosh's LEAF that currently has the most displayed battery capacity loss, will be tested to determine if in fact the cars can physically drive as far now as they did when new with a "faulty battery level display", or if this is merely another attempt by Nissan execs to deflect attention from the serious battery issues that were predicted by many experts before Nissan manufactured the car.

Herm
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Re: Phoenix LEAF Range Test Saturday, Sept 15, 2012

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:25 pm

Can you trust a QC to give you an accurate reading of kWh delivered?.. is it derived from the canbus thus suspect or internally generated at the QC?

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