Stoaty
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:01 pm

Fabulous data, great work by Tony and a bunch of other testers. I did my own range test (not standardized), but I do have comparison data from 7 months earlier.

Start (Full Charge) - 255 Gids
Work (20.2 miles) - 195 Gids
Home (40.0 miles) - 152 Gids
Work (60.2 miles) - 81 Gids
Lunch trip (69.6 miles) - 69 Gids (increased to 75 Gids when car turned on 6 hours later)
Part way home (73.0 miles) - 64 Gids (22.7% - got 82 miles previously from full charge to 22.7% Gids)
Part way home (82.0 miles) - 49 Gids (LBW, 17.4% Gids)
Home ( 89.3 miles) - 44 Gids (15.6% Gids; long downhill descent to get home uses only 5 Gids for 7 miles)

Temperatures were a bit warmer for this test (70 degrees and 5 Temp bars to start, high at work around 90 degrees F.), driving conditions were quite similar, perhaps a bit more stop and go on the freeway than usual which may have hurt my range a bit.

Range to 64 Gids - 73 miles
Range to 64 Gids 7 months ago - 82 miles

Calculated range loss to 64 Gids compared to 7 months ago - 11%

Difference in percent Gids remaining at 82 miles: 22.7% - 17.4% = 5%

Predicted range from this data (if gids are linear and car stops at 4 gids): (90.7% - 4/281%) * 89.2 miles/(90.7%-15.6%) =

(90.7-1.4) * 89.2/75 = 89.3 percent * 1.189 miles/percent = 106.2 miles (granted, not bad since there is a 1450 foot elevation gain and loss during the round trip)

Before anyone jumps up and down about different temperatures, etc., I will be repeating the test in a few months when it is cooler to see if there is any difference. While the range loss to 64 Gids appears significant, the predicted range to turtle is almost exactly the same as that done 7 months ago.

Conclusion:

1) Without driving all the way to turtle it isn't possible to estimate the actual range, my extrapolation is only a guess.
2) It appears that Gids are highly unreliable as a predictor of how much range is left. The range doesn't appear to have changed much, but the Gids certainly have!
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EVDrive
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:55 pm

Interesting results. Better range than I would have thought for the degraded cars. It definitely sounds like there are in fact some instrumentation issues without the Leaf in addition to the capacity loss. The car that went extra far could have picked up a tailwind... That would be the easy explanation for the variance.

One minor suggestion on displaying your results table: I would encourage you to paste the results data into a google spreadsheet, freeze the header row and sort sheet by distance traveled or sort it by capacity bars. The random non linear order that the data is displayed in seems odd and makes it hard to process. Sorting by something would really help and would take 30 seconds to a minute to do and a few extra seconds to take a screen shot (Easy on a Mac of course, on a pc... :( sad face).
Seems like you are sorting by range now so that should be at the left and the GID mess should be to the right as it makes no sense.

Thanks for organizing the collection of all of this data for us Tony. Very interesting. Big thanks as well to everyone that participated in this real world leaf range study. Sad to hear about the scraped cars.
Last edited by EVDrive on Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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klapauzius
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:16 pm

Given all the effort put into this, I am sorry to say that without range data from a new car, tested on the same route under similar conditions, the current results are not as meaningful as we would want them to be.

Yes, Nissan wrote somewhere that a new car can go 84 miles (or 70 or whatever number), but unless you know how far it can go on the route you tested, we are still missing a reference.

I am also not quite convinced that the gid count is meaningful. Certainly at the low and high end the gids loosely correlate to range, but e.g. in the middle (i.e. gids ranging from 70-75%, which covers 6 out of 12 cars), the correlation between gids and actual range drops to .58. If we include cars #2, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9 and #12 (covering gid percentage from 70-76%), the correlation drops even further to .36 at which point I am not sure that there is a meaningful correlation between gids and range.

Using them as a reference is probably not a good idea. As it is right now, we have nothing to compare these ranges to and we still don't know how much capacity loss the tested leafs have actually experienced.
Last edited by klapauzius on Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

azdre
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:19 pm

There's an interesting thing to note here as well. Per the chart in the OP, for a new car there are an expected 9-24 miles (depending on efficiency) between LBW and turtle. The owners manual instructs you to find a charging station as soon as possible after LBW, preferable before VLBW. To me, this means that 10-15 of the miles you see on the post should not be used on a regular basis.

Thanks again, Tony!

palmermd
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:21 pm

klapauzius wrote: Yes, Nissan wrote somewhere that a new car can go 84 miles (or 70 or whatever number), but unless you know how far it can go on the route you tested, we are still missing a reference.

you don't find it meaningful that one car went 60 miles and another 80 miles on the same route in the same conditions? Seems to me the car with 60 miles has a problem. About a 25% problem versus a car that is not even whole itself.
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Boomer23
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:29 pm

palmermd wrote:
klapauzius wrote: Yes, Nissan wrote somewhere that a new car can go 84 miles (or 70 or whatever number), but unless you know how far it can go on the route you tested, we are still missing a reference.

you don't find it meaningful that one car went 60 miles and another 80 miles on the same route in the same conditions? Seems to me the car with 60 miles has a problem. About a 25% problem versus a car that is not even whole itself.
And that car has only 70% of the range autonomy of an 85 mile new LEAF (range of my new LEAF in April 2011 at 4.0 mi/kWh indicated). I recall having read that at 70% capacity, an EV pack is considered in the industry to be toast.
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Stoaty
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:31 pm

klapauzius wrote:Given all the effort put into this, I am sorry to say that without range data from a new car, tested on the same route under similar conditions, the current results are not as meaningful as we would want them to be.

Yes, Nissan wrote somewhere that a new car can go 84 miles (or 70 or whatever number), but unless you know how far it can go on the route you tested, we are still missing a reference.
Agreed, but based on the data it looks like a new Leaf would have gone at least 84 miles in this test. If anything, it might have gone further, making the losses worse than shown in Tony's chart.
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klapauzius
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:37 pm

palmermd wrote:
klapauzius wrote: Yes, Nissan wrote somewhere that a new car can go 84 miles (or 70 or whatever number), but unless you know how far it can go on the route you tested, we are still missing a reference.

you don't find it meaningful that one car went 60 miles and another 80 miles on the same route in the same conditions? Seems to me the car with 60 miles has a problem. About a 25% problem versus a car that is not even whole itself.
Yes, but that is only one out of 12. I do not doubt that probably all cars tested have reduced range, but the exact amount of reduction is still unknown. And it seems that neither the gidmeter nor Nissans capacity meter are reliable indicators.

klapauzius
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:42 pm

Stoaty wrote:
klapauzius wrote:Given all the effort put into this, I am sorry to say that without range data from a new car, tested on the same route under similar conditions, the current results are not as meaningful as we would want them to be.

Yes, Nissan wrote somewhere that a new car can go 84 miles (or 70 or whatever number), but unless you know how far it can go on the route you tested, we are still missing a reference.
Agreed, but based on the data it looks like a new Leaf would have gone at least 84 miles in this test. If anything, it might have gone further, making the losses worse than shown in Tony's chart.
Yes, it might even go 100 miles on that test-route, but without actually testing this under the same conditions, we dont know.
84 at 65 F with constant speed at 55?
Or
84 going downhill with rearwind at 100F?

Volusiano
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:47 pm

So now what's next?

The user test in Phoenix is done, the conclusion is that there is clearly a battery problem, and also instrumentation problem as well.

It's been a couple of months since Nissan returned the Casa Grande test cars and they're still not sharing data with any of those owners and giving any conclusion of their own. You can only deduce that the data is not good for them, and that's why they don't want to share.

What should be done next?

More of the same test in Texas?

Release results to the media?

Organize class action lawsuit?

Surely, after Nissan's deafening silence for the last several months, we shouldn't expect that they will bother responding to the AZ Tempe test results at all, do we?

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