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mwalsh
Posts: 9644
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Leaf Number: 0213
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:14 am

I'm glad to see that range chart extracted from the TSB...I've never seen that before, and it's the kind of information I've been calling on Nissan to make fully available for a while now. As owners, we have a right to know what we should expect to be "normal" degradation.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 84,000 miles
2015 pack on 12/30/15
Tinted windows
Bosch AGM 12v
Ecopia 422+ tires
L1 EVSE upgrade
FIAMM horns
Superbright LED lighting
2013 sun visors
LED shifter
Heated seats
GT-R map lamp lenses
Altima illuminated door switches

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RegGuheert
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
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Location: Northern VA

Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:20 am

mwalsh wrote:I'm glad to see that range chart extracted from the TSB...I've never seen that before, and it's the kind of information I've been calling on Nissan to make fully available for a while now. As owners, we have a right to know what we should expect to be "normal" degradation.
NTB11-076a ONLY covers new range expectations, as Tony provided in the OP of this thread. The degradation chart shown later is purely the fabrication of Yanquetino.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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mwalsh
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Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:26 am

RegGuheert wrote:
mwalsh wrote:I'm glad to see that range chart extracted from the TSB...I've never seen that before, and it's the kind of information I've been calling on Nissan to make fully available for a while now. As owners, we have a right to know what we should expect to be "normal" degradation.
NTB11-076a ONLY covers new range expectations, as Tony provided in the OP of this thread. The degradation chart shown later is purely the fabrication of Yanquetino.
I said chart. I really meant table. I can see he's marked his chart as an extrapolation. Is the table of his own manufacture too?

Oh, and is there a link to the TSB, so I could see it with my own eyes? Edit: Never mind...found it.
2011 Blue Ocean SL with 84,000 miles
2015 pack on 12/30/15
Tinted windows
Bosch AGM 12v
Ecopia 422+ tires
L1 EVSE upgrade
FIAMM horns
Superbright LED lighting
2013 sun visors
LED shifter
Heated seats
GT-R map lamp lenses
Altima illuminated door switches

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:44 am

mwalsh wrote:Oh, and is there a link to the TSB, so I could see it with my own eyes? Edit: Never mind...found it.
For everyone else, here is a link to a post by TickTock containing a partial scan of the first page of NTB11-076a:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=357" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

KJD
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Leaf Number: 15656
Location: SLC, UT
Contact: Website

Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:22 am

Yanquetino wrote:Sigh.... Given what I have experienced in these forum discussions, I hesitate to state this, but... I draw very different conclusions: AZ Leaf Capacity Kerfuffle
I really hesitate to criticize a fellow Utoid, but since you so freely criticize other peoples hard work, I hope that you take it as well as you give it out.

I used to think that range testing would be an easy thing to do. Now that I have done a few tests I find I have more questions than answers. Maybe Mark and Tony can help me fill in the blanks.

Mark where is the data from your actual over the road range testing?
How far can your car travel on level ground at 65 mph?
What is the manufacture date of your vehicle ( Drivers door post ) ?
How many miles are on the odometer ?
Does your actual data fit your projected data on the page above ?

Tony how many of the Casa Grande 6 where included in the Tempe 12 ?
Back on page one of this tread there is a table with a column for Manufacture year. Could we change that to have month and year from the tag on the car?
2012 SL Delivered 12/08/2011
Sold 05/12/2015
2012 Tesla Model S 85

Stoaty
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Leaf Number: 3871
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:31 am

RegGuheert wrote:NTB11-076a ONLY covers new range expectations, as Tony provided in the OP of this thread. The degradation chart shown later is purely the fabrication of Yanquetino.
That is the most misleading (? fraudulent) part of the article. It took me a while to figure out that he made the whole thing up. Nissan never said a thing about how mileage would affect capacity loss.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

azdre
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:28 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:59 am

Reg-Thanks for the post. I do in fact still love the LEAF and can't imagine driving anything else. But, as you've stated it's not living up to nearly any of the marketing. Most of that I learned to live with in the first 6 months, but these last 6 months is a different story.

Opossum has had EVs his whole life. Here's how I summed up my first EV experience for some local enthusiasts back in June, it's gotten much worse since then.

Cool!!! An EV with a hundred mile range. I want one!
Wow, look at the big polar bear, boy those are yummy cheesecake bites.
Wow! I love my new car!!! It's so much better than I hoped for!!! I'm going to tell all my friends.
Wow! Going 65 really cuts into range. 10-20% gone.
Wow! Even at 55, going north on the 51 really cuts into range 10-15% gone.
Oh no, my new car is being towed across town...
Yay, got my car back, uh oh, broken again... Yay I got my car back, uh oh, broken again. Ok, early adopter is one thing, this is ridiculous, it better be fixed this time.
Yay! I love my car again.
Hmm, I expected the AC to reduce range, but 10%? Ok, I can deal.
Oh, it's been a year and now takes 2 more bars to to 40 miles than it did last year. Lost a capacity bar 1 week after 12 month checkup. 15% gone.
Oh, the EV infrastructure that I was counting on to make up for battery degradation is going to charge so much that an ICE would be more economical.
What the heck am I going to do with a car that requires a 2 hour extra charge to go 80 miles.

DrInnovation
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:47 pm
Location: Colorado Springs. Volt Owner

Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:41 am

klapauzius wrote:
SNIP

Notably the 8 bar car also had the lowest M/kWH, any idea why that is? If we extrapolate to e.g. 4.2 M/kWh, which is the mean for the other cars, it would have gone 67.3 miles, which makes it less of an outlier in terms of range as it appears. This would also lower the overall correlation of observed range with e.g. capacity bars or gids.

Given the variation in (reported) efficiency, one should actually consider the quotient of actual range (lets assume that these values are comparable, i.e. every car was indeed driven to turtle) of range measured divided by efficiency.

The you would get the following list
[Car] [Apparent capacity (=range/efficiency)] [normalized capacity = (apparent cp- <apparent cp>)/std(apparent cp)
Red429 16.7 -0.43
Blue494 16.0 -0.94
Blue534 18.0 0.57

SNIP

Blue744 16.4 -0.63
-----------------
mean 17.3 std 1.3

So all tested cars (with this small sample size), fall within 2 standard deviations of the sample mean, so technically, no outliers there. If we now had results for supposedly healthy new batteries (e.g (e.g. for at least 12 (ideally 30 or so) brand new leafs) under the same conditions, we could actually tell which of the tested cars had significant degradation. If we assume that 19.6 apparent capacity (Black782) is representative of the mean for a healthy battery, and we have the same variation as in our sample of 11 bad cars then we have

SNIP

Not sure that normalizing by efficiency is appropriate because as the battery degrades it increases its internal resistance and becomes less efficient, so you are normalizing by something that is directly related to the hypothesized effect.
Loving the Volt. I've saved 29 gallons compared to a BEV+CUV. From 10/29/11 to 12/29/12, went 11097 on 27.7 gallons of gas + 2742kWh Total fuel costs=$259.27, yielding: 0.25 gal./100mi, 400.5 MPG, 101.73MPGe, 166.5 MPG$ or $.0234/mi.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:12 am

KJD wrote:Mark where is the data from your actual over the road range testing?


Tony how many of the Casa Grande 6 where included in the Tempe 12 ?
Back on page one of this tread there is a table with a column for Manufacture year. Could we change that to have month and year from the tag on the car?
Armchair quarterbacking rarely includes any hard work; just criticism as easy as typing on a keyboard. So, I'm confident what Mark's answer will be to your question. I, on the other hand, have probably hundreds of hours doing it, and documenting my work for the past over one year here.

In the OP, it should mention that 4 of the 12 were at Casa Grande. Yes, I can include the month and year; we have that data. Both 2012's were manufactured 4/2012, and the oldest was 2/2011 from memory.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

ALLWATZ
Posts: 92
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Delivery Date: 14 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 6877
Location: Palm Springs area

Re: Phoenix Range Test Results, September 15, 2012

Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:59 am

azdre wrote:Reg-Thanks for the post. I do in fact still love the LEAF and can't imagine driving anything else. But, as you've stated it's not living up to nearly any of the marketing. Most of that I learned to live with in the first 6 months, but these last 6 months is a different story.

Opossum has had EVs his whole life. Here's how I summed up my first EV experience for some local enthusiasts back in June, it's gotten much worse since then.

Cool!!! An EV with a hundred mile range. I want one!
Wow, look at the big polar bear, boy those are yummy cheesecake bites.
Wow! I love my new car!!! It's so much better than I hoped for!!! I'm going to tell all my friends.
Wow! Going 65 really cuts into range. 10-20% gone.
Wow! Even at 55, going north on the 51 really cuts into range 10-15% gone.
Oh no, my new car is being towed across town...
Yay, got my car back, uh oh, broken again... Yay I got my car back, uh oh, broken again. Ok, early adopter is one thing, this is ridiculous, it better be fixed this time.
Yay! I love my car again.
Hmm, I expected the AC to reduce range, but 10%? Ok, I can deal.
Oh, it's been a year and now takes 2 more bars to to 40 miles than it did last year. Lost a capacity bar 1 week after 12 month checkup. 15% gone.
Oh, the EV infrastructure that I was counting on to make up for battery degradation is going to charge so much that an ICE would be more economical.
What the heck am I going to do with a car that requires a 2 hour extra charge to go 80 miles.
Just one more line to ad:
Wow! If Nissan doesn't come through with a solution to the battery problems in heat prone areas, I am so glad that I have GAP insurance for my purchase. As long as someone totals my car before it's paid for (financed the whole enchilada $36,000), I'll be looking better than at the end with a large valueless paperweight with a PV panel on top.

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