mkjayakumar
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Location: Plano, TX

Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:12 am

As I was plugging the other day in a local Kroger lot, a man walked in and asked me about the range. I told him bluntly that 100 miles is all Nissan BS, and he should plan on no more than 50 miles in winter and 65 miles in general. Anything more is bonus. He shook his head and walked away. But I told him the lease deals are incredibly cheap, that if his commute is less than 65 miles, then Leaf should be a no-brainer.
2011 Leaf, 30K miles, returned after 24 month lease.
Currently leasing 2014 Leaf SV.

bonaire
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:03 am

The guy shaking his head there must have been thinking "heh, guy can only go 75 miles before he breaks down"... Which is really bad thinking but that's how people come to conclusions. In a city environment with good charging locations - a Leaf works wonders, I'd bet. In a rural community (the fly-over states) and anyone who has a long commute with no chance of plugging in (this is 99% of all commuters) it is hard to fathom. This is why EVs are having such a hard time getting "herd traction". Traction amongst the common-man/family/buyer.

Maybe it is that the 100 miles "gets them in the showroom" and then "reality can be rationalized away". 300Wh to 350Wh per mile is acceptable for almost any EV that is driven in normal traffic or about 60mph on the highway. You can even granny-along a Tesla roadster or model-S and get fantastic mileage out of it. When you drive like many normal drivers in a typical "suburban commuter cycle" - someone who goes harder from the light, drives 70mph on a 55mph highway, etc. Those are the ones who see the worst "delta from marketing" in terms of mileage. Put one of today's highway hogs (as I call them) who drive with authority in their Mercedes or BMW company cars. They'll see 400Wh per mile easily on their utility cycle.

A hypermiling prius driver may be able to hit 80-90 miles in a Leaf using their skills on a warm spring day. 100 or more miles if you are a pace car for a professional bicycle race (25-40mph range). Typical commuter cycle (the target audience of a Leaf) should be stated as 75 mile range.

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ksnogas2112
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Contact: Website

Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:30 am

Boomer23 wrote:I took a look at the official Nissan site, looking for that 100 mile range claim, and as far as I can see, it's nowhere to be seen.
Instead, under range, they show the rainbow of curves with ranges from 62 miles to 138 miles depending on listed, clickable driving conditions.
I don't recall whether the equivalent web page previously touted 100 miles, but it doesn't appear to now.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric- ... ection_nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Boomer...that's an awesome link. THAT is what should be clearly in front of every person who doesn't know and is wanting to talk Leaf. The only caveat it's missing is the information is brand new drive off the lot range. Year 3 of the lease, ymmv.
Tom in KS
100 Mile Club-#57
http://ksnogas.blogspot.com/
Try reading a book, it's a novel experience
MY 2012 - Cayenne Red-55,000+ miles

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ksnogas2112
Posts: 1218
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Contact: Website

Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:34 am

ut oh....found it.... 106 MPGe*
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric- ... ection_nav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Tom in KS
100 Mile Club-#57
http://ksnogas.blogspot.com/
Try reading a book, it's a novel experience
MY 2012 - Cayenne Red-55,000+ miles

Bicster
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Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:59 am

MPGe has nothing to do with range.
Reserved on April 20, 2010 - Never purchased

LEAFfan
Posts: 4828
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Leaf Number: 1855
Location: Phoenix Area

Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:30 am

bonaire wrote:The guy shaking his head there must have been thinking "heh, guy can only go 75 miles before he breaks down"... Which is really bad thinking but that's how people come to conclusions. In a city environment with good charging locations - a Leaf works wonders, I'd bet. In a rural community (the fly-over states) and anyone who has a long commute with no chance of plugging in (this is 99% of all commuters) it is hard to fathom. This is why EVs are having such a hard time getting "herd traction". Traction amongst the common-man/family/buyer.

Maybe it is that the 100 miles "gets them in the showroom" and then "reality can be rationalized away". 300Wh to 350Wh per mile is acceptable for almost any EV that is driven in normal traffic or about 60mph on the highway. You can even granny-along a Tesla roadster or model-S and get fantastic mileage out of it. When you drive like many normal drivers in a typical "suburban commuter cycle" - someone who goes harder from the light, drives 70mph on a 55mph highway, etc. Those are the ones who see the worst "delta from marketing" in terms of mileage. Put one of today's highway hogs (as I call them) who drive with authority in their Mercedes or BMW company cars. They'll see 400Wh per mile easily on their utility cycle.

A hypermiling prius driver may be able to hit 80-90 miles in a Leaf using their skills on a warm spring day. 100 or more miles if you are a pace car for a professional bicycle race (25-40mph range). Typical commuter cycle (the target audience of a Leaf) should be stated as 75 mile range.
With hypermiling, they should easily be able to get 100 miles on a 100% charge. I could routinely get 100 miles on an 80% charge.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:40 am

LEAFfan wrote:
Typical commuter cycle (the target audience of a Leaf) should be stated as 75 mile range.
With hypermiling, they should easily be able to get 100 miles on a 100% charge. I could routinely get 100 miles on an 80% charge.
The point EXACTLY... John Q. Public doesn't hypermile, and he is the target audience.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bonaire
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:08 pm

ksnogas2112 - love your avatar. I'm a big fan too.

And, for above, I doubt anyone is "routinely" getting 100 miles on an 80% charge in the Leaf unless it is in closed-course, laboratory conditions.

The other morning, I was commuting to work (70 miles one way) in the Volt.

I was keeping up with traffic at about 63mph on a 55mph highway. I spy some interesting tail lights ahead in the right lane. Lo and behold a Leaf. Light blue and windows foggy (32*F). I pass with traffic in the left lane and note he was going maybe 54-55mph. 1 mile later (this is in SE PA - so heh, this is rare) another light blue leaf driven by a young woman. Going about 56mph in the right lane. Windows foggy but she seems a bit more determined than the first guy who appeared to be hypermiling and perhaps freezing. Were they heaterless? I was heaterless in the Volt as well, but do kick on the heater once I enter Mountain Mode in the middle portion of the drive (which is EV-gas-EV for my 70 miles - 41mpg on gas, about 35 miles electric when it's 32*F).

The western suburbs of Philadelphia are good target for Leafs but our electric prices are indeed higher than other parts of the country. Delivered, it is .167/kWh. If they're leasing the Leafs for the new $199/mo and charging at home and doing 20-30 miles to the office, they're doing well in this corridor. I've also been seeing a lot more Volts out there.

I'm tossing up between a Leaf, Focus EV (kinda pricey) or just waiting it out for a couple years to see what else is to come. sure would like an EREV SUV or CUV and the VW CrossBlue seems nice. http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2013/01/ne ... r-suv.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:01 pm

bonaire wrote:... Windows foggy but she seems a bit more determined than the first guy who appeared to be hypermiling and perhaps freezing. Were they heaterless?
I suspect they had the seat and steering wheel heaters on, but otherwise, probably no heater. You quickly learn in a LEAF how much power that thing sucks!!!

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planet4ever
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Leaf Number: 1537
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Re: Phila. Auto Show - Leaf range

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:07 am

ksnogas2112 wrote:
Boomer...that's an awesome link. THAT is what should be clearly in front of every person who doesn't know and is wanting to talk Leaf. The only caveat it's missing is the information is brand new drive off the lot range. Year 3 of the lease, ymmv.
You're right, that is a major hole. They should at least say they expect an average 20% range loss after 5 years/60K miles, more in hot climates. Three other important missing data points:
  • I think the numbers they give are to Turtle. They should say how far you can go to LBW, since I suspect a majority of drivers will not want to go lower than that.
  • The only thing that comes close to freeway driving is their "Cross-town commute on a hot day" with an average speed of 49mph. It is unclear how much of the loss is due to speed and how much due to the air conditioner. They should should show a case that is 95% freeway driving at 70 mph with no heating/cooling needed.
  • Their only winter case is urban stop and go. Show a case at, say, 65mph and 14 degrees F. Tony's chart says that should be nearly as bad as the one they show, proving that cold itself reduces range even if the heater isn't running that long.
Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

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