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Re: Range issues

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:20 am
by planet4ever
Den wrote:But at -20C it uses 3kW even in ECO mode, and about 2kW at -10C. So there is no such 1,5kW limit.
Thanks for the correction. It's never been cold enough where I am to see that. The lowest I've seen when driving is about +3C, and at that temperature or higher (without preheating) it starts at 4.5kW in D, but at 1.5kW in ECO. Ah, the sins of extrapolation!

Ray

Re: Range issues

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:23 am
by MaxPower
Today I went for a scenic 60+ mile drive, using cabin heater (almost full time) and both front seat heaters (as needed.) Temperature 40-50F with light wind and several thousand feet of climbing (and descending.)

I was careful not to speed, and stayed below the 55mph limit on skyline because it was a beautiful sunset.

The Leaf is a 2012 SL bought new in June 2012, about 8000 miles on the odometer.

START: Santa Clara CA, battery at 100%
South on Lawrence Expy,
South on Saratoga Ave
South on Highway 9
North on Skyline Boulevard (CA-35)
East at 84 (Woodside Rd)
South at El Camino Real (82) to Mountain View (grabbed a burrito)
South on 101 to Sunnyvale (Spirent QC)
Lawrence to Santa Clara (END)

I don't usually take El Camino Real for this drive, but today I was scouting for dinner.

Spirent QC in Sunnyvale is only 6 miles from home and pushed the charge in fast since I was down to 2 bars (30% according to the Blink QC). I could have easily gone straight home, but there were good reasons to use it.

- the charge was free
- I still don't have a 240V EVSE at home, so it is nice to QC after a long drive to quickly get above 50% SOC.
- I stopped it after 19 minutes when it reached 78% indicated on the Blink - that's 48% added in 19 minutes!
- Spirent has some nice outdoor tables and seating for picnicking while you charge
- sometimes you meet nice people at the QC and it's fun to compare notes

It would be really nice if QC locations all had a bathroom nearby. I wasn't in dire distress, but the thought did occur to me while I was waiting (in 50 degree air).

Got home around 10 pm. The 110V trickle charger reached 80% SOC just before 4 am. Obviously the onboard charger is erring on the safe side to avoid overcharging / overheating during QC. If this keeps my vehicle from "venting with flame" then I don't mind it so much.

Re: Range issues

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:40 pm
by planet4ever
Nice report, thanks.
MaxPower wrote:Obviously the onboard charger is erring on the safe side to avoid overcharging / overheating during QC.
Just to clarify, here is a rough graphic of power flow during charging. (Note: sizes of the boxes are not meant to reflect sizes of the hardware involved.)
Image
As you can see, the onboard charger is not directly involved in power transfer during Quick Charge. It does indirectly play a small role, however. Regardless of power source, the Lithium Battery Controller (LBC) computer sends orders as to the voltage currently required for charging. This varies depending on the state of the battery (especially charge level and temperature). It is the onboard charger computer which monitors those orders, and carries them out in the case of trickle or normal charging. For Quick Charge it merely maps them blindly into CHAdeMO interface and sends them on to the external Quick Charger.

Ray

Re: Range issues

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:32 pm
by RickV
I live in Las Vegas. I drive in eco mode and never use the heater. Two months after I bought the card, the dealer told me to expect only about 46 miles per full charge. That is about the mileage that my car has been getting. What were you told about mileage when you bought your Leafs?

Re: Range issues

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:38 pm
by TonyWilliams
RickV wrote:I live in Las Vegas. I drive in eco mode and never use the heater. Two months after I bought the card, the dealer told me to expect only about 46 miles per full charge. That is about the mileage that my car has been getting. What were you told about mileage when you bought your Leafs?
If you are driving 46 miles from 100% charge to DEAD or Turtle mode with no heater in mild Las Vegas, there something wrong with your car (and your dealer for telling you that).

What other people were told has no relevance on your 46 miles. The car is EPA rated for 73 miles, and Nissan claims it will do 100 miles "average" in the USA, 124 to 142 miles in Japan, and 109 miles in Europe.

Re: Range issues

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:06 am
by keydiver
RickV wrote:I live in Las Vegas. I drive in eco mode and never use the heater.
At what speed do you drive for your commute? ECO mode won't help at highway speeds, but driving slower will. Do you still have all 12 of your battery capacity bars, on the far right side of your dash?

Re: Range issues

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:05 am
by nlagnew
planet4ever wrote:
Den wrote:But at -20C it uses 3kW even in ECO mode, and about 2kW at -10C. So there is no such 1,5kW limit.
Thanks for the correction. It's never been cold enough where I am to see that. The lowest I've seen when driving is about +3C, and at that temperature or higher (without preheating) it starts at 4.5kW in D, but at 1.5kW in ECO. Ah, the sins of extrapolation!

Ray
When it is between +20 and +30F (-6 to -1C) and I'm driving in ECO mode, my heater takes as much as 4.5kW. I have never seen the heat use as little as 1.5kW -- it might eventually get down to only using 2.5kW once the cabin is a bit warmer. I only drive in ECO. On short trips, or when temperatures are above 40F (4.5C), I don't bother with heat. Last Friday, when we had an ice storm, I needed heat in order to keep the ice from forming on the windshield. Without it, I was looking out of an increasingly small window on the windshield. It used 4.5kW, in ECO.

Re: Range issues

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:13 am
by Leaf1
TonyWilliams wrote:
RickV wrote:I live in Las Vegas. I drive in eco mode and never use the heater. Two months after I bought the card, the dealer told me to expect only about 46 miles per full charge. That is about the mileage that my car has been getting. What were you told about mileage when you bought your Leafs?
If you are driving 46 miles from 100% charge to DEAD or Turtle mode with no heater in mild Las Vegas, there something wrong with your car (and your dealer for telling you that).

What other people were told has no relevance on your 46 miles. The car is EPA rated for 73 miles, and Nissan claims it will do 100 miles "average" in the USA, 124 to 142 miles in Japan, and 109 miles in Europe.


Maybe this is a case of the dealers starting to change their message to new buyers to prevent disappointing some. If so, seems like they are under selling the range capability a bit.

Re: Range issues

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:22 am
by mazdaboi
at 80% charge and my lighter foot than the wife, I get around 70miles my efficiency gauge runs around 3.4-4.1 mi/kWh. Wife drives harder, faster and avg/s 2.2-2.5 yet she only does short jaunts to and from gym, food store and mall. range isnt a factor for her. I'll be testing the 100mi club track record here soon when I can manage no heat and decent temps. Sorry to hear the dealer would immediately say 46miles of range. I spoke with my dealer and expressed the ease of getting 70miles of range with combined city/hwy and that they should shy away from the 100mile mark but state that the car "could" go 100miles in ideal warm conditions with a gentle driver. Honesty always helps, So when somone thinks they can go 70 but ends up much further...smiles and respect for the vehicle and salesperson for not expressing false information.

Re: Range issues

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:59 am
by dgpcolorado
nlagnew wrote:
planet4ever wrote:
Den wrote:But at -20C it uses 3kW even in ECO mode, and about 2kW at -10C. So there is no such 1,5kW limit.
Thanks for the correction. It's never been cold enough where I am to see that. The lowest I've seen when driving is about +3C, and at that temperature or higher (without preheating) it starts at 4.5kW in D, but at 1.5kW in ECO. Ah, the sins of extrapolation!

Ray
When it is between +20 and +30F (-6 to -1C) and I'm driving in ECO mode, my heater takes as much as 4.5kW. I have never seen the heat use as little as 1.5kW -- it might eventually get down to only using 2.5kW once the cabin is a bit warmer. I only drive in ECO. On short trips, or when temperatures are above 40F (4.5C), I don't bother with heat. Last Friday, when we had an ice storm, I needed heat in order to keep the ice from forming on the windshield. Without it, I was looking out of an increasingly small window on the windshield. It used 4.5kW, in ECO.
We need to draw the distinction between the "heater" and defrosting. When the defrost button is pushed the heater will draw 4-5 kW regardless of whether the car is in D or Eco, until the heater bottle is warmed up, at which point the power draw declines. That is a safety issue, I presume. However, when just cabin heating is selected, driving in Eco is supposed to limit the heater draw (unless the temperature is set to 90ºF, according to others here):
• When the vehicle is in the ECO position, the climate control operates in the ECO mode which reduces the power consumption.
LEAF manual, page 4-13

It has been some time since I experimented with this since I rarely use the heater except for defogging/defrosting. My recollection was that it did work that way. So, when you say that the "heater takes as much as 4.5kW", my guess is that you are talking about using the defroster, right?