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surfingslovak
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:51 am

donald wrote: Sorry. To clarify, it was directed specifically at GRA who appears to be pouting that BEVs are no use because he won't get the range the manufacturers claim at his desired max-velocity burn down the highway. (And apologies to him if that is not the intent of his posts, but it certainly sounds like it.)
Thank you for clarifying! My statement was done in the context of helping usher EV adoption. Thankfully, there are many new EV drivers minted every day. Based on my own experience and what I have learned and observed in communities such as this one, it's important to set the right expectations upfront, and approach common problems and barriers to adoption with a pragmatic mindset.

donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:27 am

surfingslovak wrote: it's important to set the right expectations upfront, and approach common problems and barriers to adoption with a pragmatic mindset.
I couldn't agree more.

I'm disheartened by manufacturers/vendors who (as per the case in this thread) raise, themselves, the issues they think people are concerned about and then promptly try to white-wash it.

People have, and express, genuine concerns about the limitations of EVs, but rather than put those issues into the context of the benefits that EVs can bring as an alternative, they seem hell-bent on trying to make EVs sound as 'ICEy' as they possibly can, as if to avoid offending anyone that insists on only having what they have always had - GRA being a prime example. I don't think his sorts of arguments are ever going to be satisfied, at least not for several years, and it's a fool's errand to attempt to persuade him on the basis of mileage claims.

I think VMs should focus on the differences of EVs versus ICEs, rather than try to argue that they are almost the same, and in this way open some people's eyes to alternative possibilities. EVs are just not a mass-market product yet, but that doesn't mean they can't be sold in larger numbers making the economics of production look much better for the future.

GRA
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:27 pm

donald wrote:
surfingslovak wrote:What pushed the argument over the edge, in my opinion, was the "don't drive a BEV" statement. I don't even know what to respond to that.
Sorry. To clarify, it was directed specifically at GRA who appears to be pouting that BEVs are no use because he won't get the range the manufacturers claim at his desired max-velocity burn down the highway. (And apologies to him if that is not the intent of his posts, but it certainly sounds like it.)

My comments here were not, at all, intended to be directed at those who, as you say, are already well aware of the issued - that is to say, folks who already use EVs. Apologies that this comment could be misread out of context with GRA's apparent position. I was merely repeating what is known, for GRA's benefit.
Since I've been posting here for quite a while most people already know my position, but to repeat it for _your_ benefit, BEVs will only reach _mass_ adoption when they have acceptable ranges the way the average motorist actually drives, i.e. without making all the compromises early adopters/extreme greens are willing to make. That means you don't have to drive slower than the flow of traffic, you don't have to put up with not using the HVAC, and you don't have to take side roads instead of using the freeway. No pouting involved, just an acknowledgement of the facts.

Most drivers aren't motivated by environmental ideology, they're motivated by their pocketbook and convenience. For mass adoption, the range of BEVs needs to increase to the point where the typical driver doesn't even have to think about the fact that they're driving a BEV instead of an ICE, except that they plug it in at night when they get home. And this has to be at an affordable price.

If you go over to the MyRAV4EV forum, you won't see complaints about the car's inadequate range in daily use, unlike the case here. Per Tony William's tests the RAV4EV will go 142 miles @ 65 mph in ideal conditions when new, which implies a real world range of about 100 miles when making reasonable allowances for reserve, HVAC use, winds etc. and some degradation. Even at 70% of original capacity, the car will still go 70 miles or so with a reasonable reserve, where the LEAF is down in the totally inadequate 30-40 mile range depending on the temperature. Thus, about 150 miles EPA when new seems to be the necessary range to handle 95% or more or commutes/errands, and that's what's needed for mass adoption in the U.S. But it can't be in a $50k car, $30k or less is what's needed.

So much for daily drivers. Trip cars need considerably more range, ultimately at least four hours plus a reserve at whatever the freeway speed limit is (at a minimum; given the way most people actually drive in large parts of the U.S., five or ten mph over the limit is more realistic), with allowances for HVAC use, degradation etc. Not even the Tesla S-85 comes close to that yet (although FCEVs do), but we'll see steady improvement in batteries that will eventually allow it, or else FCEVs will take over the road trips, or we´ll use HEVs/PHEVs/diesels for those. But the Tesla S _does_ have enough range for the majority of weekend trips now, especially given an SC or two en-route. Obviously, they're far too expensive to ever be mass market, but Gen III won't be if Tesla can hit their price point.
Last edited by GRA on Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:06 pm

GRA wrote:most people already know my position, but to repeat it for _your_ benefit, BEVs will only reach _mass_ adoption when they have acceptable ranges the way the average motorist actually drives, i.e. without making all the compromises early adopters/extreme greens are willing to make.
Did you not even to bother reading to the end of my last post?
donald wrote:I think VMs should focus on the differences of EVs versus ICEs, rather than try to argue that they are almost the same, and in this way open some people's eyes to alternative possibilities. EVs are just not a mass-market product yet, but that doesn't mean they can't be sold in larger numbers making the economics of production look much better for the future.
A bit of bold-ing, in case you haven't got your thick glasses nearby. You sound like you want to disagree with something, but are struggling because you don't have an original point to make.

I might not have read all the threads on this forum, but nothing I have read so far, nor anything I have put, has argued the opposite to your suggestion that EVs won't reach a mass market without competing on range and price. ... so what? What are you trying to then argue, consequent to this amazing piece of genius-deduction?

Generally, the mass market follows what it thinks the rest of the mass market wants. That's why it is a 'mass-market' - because it has the widest appeal. Like sheep following each other. They all chant the same mantra; 'say after me; I am an individual because I have a big fast car which makes me free'. Feel free to tag along with the other sheep. No-one's stopping you. I'm just struggling to understand why you are posting on an EV forum?

thankyouOB
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:18 pm

GRA is like Sir Galahad, purer than all the other knights.
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
--
ECOtality/LADWP/ Blink 4/4/11
--
Gardena Nissan, msrp -1k
red SL with etec L3
SOLAR POWERED since 2008

GRA
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:40 pm

donald wrote:
GRA wrote:most people already know my position, but to repeat it for _your_ benefit, BEVs will only reach _mass_ adoption when they have acceptable ranges the way the average motorist actually drives, i.e. without making all the compromises early adopters/extreme greens are willing to make.
Did you not even to bother reading to the end of my last post?
donald wrote:I think VMs should focus on the differences of EVs versus ICEs, rather than try to argue that they are almost the same, and in this way open some people's eyes to alternative possibilities. EVs are just not a mass-market product yet, but that doesn't mean they can't be sold in larger numbers making the economics of production look much better for the future.
A bit of bold-ing, in case you haven't got your thick glasses nearby. You sound like you want to disagree with something, but are struggling because you don't have an original point to make.

I might not have read all the threads on this forum, but nothing I have read so far, nor anything I have put, has argued the opposite to your suggestion that EVs won't reach a mass market without competing on range and price. ... so what? What are you trying to then argue, consequent to this amazing piece of genius-deduction?

Generally, the mass market follows what it thinks the rest of the mass market wants. That's why it is a 'mass-market' - because it has the widest appeal. Like sheep following each other. They all chant the same mantra; 'say after me; I am an individual because I have a big fast car which makes me free'. Feel free to tag along with the other sheep. No-one's stopping you. I'm just struggling to understand why you are posting on an EV forum?
You were the one disagreeing with my earlier post re the necessary ranges required for real-world use, so I was replying to that. As to why I post on an EV forum, that too has been covered at length in the past. I'm a fan of them but don't want to see their current capabilities oversold, with the inevitable backlash which then ensues. I've seen that happen with solar in the '80s and '90s, with BEVs (1990s edition), with FCEVs (2000s edition), and so on. My sig states my attitude towards adoption of new tech, having been through it myself with off-grid PV in the early nineties. Nissan has been reaping the (negative) rewards of overhype and overpromising for the past year or two, and I'd prefer that other EV companies don't follow them, lest they nearly kill BEVs AGAIN.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

donald
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:11 pm

GRA wrote:You were the one disagreeing with my earlier post re the necessary ranges required for real-world use, so I was replying to that.
You're setting up your own windmills there. I don't see any such disagreement. You seem so keen to want to argue about something, you're imagining your own arguments now.

In any case, driving to work is a real-world use of a vehicle. I have no problem driving to work in my EV. It directly replaces a diesel car which has clocked up 80,000 commuting miles in the last 8 years and I have no reason to doubt this could do the same, and with a fuel saving of 75%, lower road tax, lower insurance (funnily enough) and expected-to-be lower maintenance. That's pretty 'real-world'.

Oh, yeah - it's also a much more sublime, cosseting driving experience too, and I get to work better prepared and back home less tired. I guess you get to work in a sweaty buzz of adrenalin from your high-speed antics, and then promptly droop from the stress.

Your 'real-world' may consist of racing every other car down the longest highway you can find, like some demented dog on heat. I don't live in that world.

thankyouOB
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:37 pm

donald wrote:
Your 'real-world' may consist of racing every other car down the longest highway you can find, like some demented dog on heat. I don't live in that world.
where do you live?
your ID dont say.
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
--
ECOtality/LADWP/ Blink 4/4/11
--
Gardena Nissan, msrp -1k
red SL with etec L3
SOLAR POWERED since 2008

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surfingslovak
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:41 pm

thankyouOB wrote:
donald wrote:
Your 'real-world' may consist of racing every other car down the longest highway you can find, like some demented dog on heat. I don't live in that world.
where do you live?
your ID dont say.
Click to open
Last edited by surfingslovak on Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

cwerdna
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Re: Shaming of dealers, reps, etc. saying Leaf's range is 10

Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:55 pm

Donald, can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

We seem to be getting off topic. My OP is my original intent as NOBODY at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; thought 100 miles is the range that Nissan reps should tell people the range of the '12 Leaf is. Presumably, those folks have never owned nor leased a BEV before.

From TonyWilliams' range tests, it doesn't seem like the '13 Leaf has any more range than the '12, so by extension, 100 miles also seems like a bad number to tell people.

Underestimating typical US highway driving speeds, discussing truck speed limits, etc. really should be discussed in another topic.

'19 Bolt Premier
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'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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