edatoakrun
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Leaf Number: 2184
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:55 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote: ...Like Tony, i think there is something missing from the report (since there is very little said about how the test was done) that might be more important than the testers realized?
29 pages of test procedures that may answer your questions are available from the page I linked in the OP, and directly here:

http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/etatp4r3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Excerpted from the Initial conditions and prerequisites:
...4.3.1 Road tests shall be performed on a road or test track which is level
to within 1%...

4.6 Tires provided with the vehicle shall be the standard tire offered by the
Electric Vehicle manufacturer, and shall be inflated to the manufacturer’s
(placard) recommended cold inflation pressures. This pressure shall not
exceed the maximum allowable pressure imprinted upon the tire’s sidewall...

4.8 Accessories shall not be used during testing activities...

And specific to the 60 mph test:
5.2 Range at 60 mph Constant Speed
The purpose of this section is to determine the maximum range the vehicle
can achieve with the batteries fully charged (100% SOC), the vehicle
loaded at curb weight plus 332 pounds, and operated at a constant 60 mph.
This testing shall be completed subject to the initial conditions and
prerequisites stated in Section 4 of this procedure.
5.2.1 Instrument the vehicle to obtain, at a minimum, the data identified
in Section 4.10. Calibrate the fifth wheel, as necessary.
5.2.2 Verify the traction battery is at fully charged (100% SOC).
5.2.3 Record odometer reading and time on Appendix B.
5.2.4 Adjust the vehicle’s cold tire pressures to match the manufacturer’s
placard value, or the maximum cold inflation pressure imprinted
upon the tire’s sidewall, whichever is less.
5.2.5 From a standing start, accelerate the vehicle under its own power to
a speed of 60 mph ± 1 mph (96 km/h ± 1.6 km/h). Speed and time
may be recorded via a Data Acquisition System (DAS.)
5.2.6 Each time the vehicle passes the lap marker, record the SOC meter
reading and the odometer reading. Each reading shall be recorded
in the smallest increment displayed by it’s respective indicator.
5.2.7 Maintain this speed without interruption until an average vehicle lap
speed of at least 57 mph (91 km/h) cannot be maintained. If testing
is being accomplished at FaAA, continue testing until the vehicle
will not maintain 53 mph on the east bound straight-away. Record
the final speed, odometer reading and time on Appendix B. (This
may be recorded via a DAS.)
5.2.8 Pull the vehicle off to the side of the test track. Record the time,
mileage, SOC meter and odometer reading on Appendix B...
It does not seem to list specific criteria for the 70 mph test.

Otherwise, about the only additional information I'd like to see is the actual test site's elevation profile.

As I said earlier:
Sublime wrote:
jpa2825 wrote:Can anyone provide an Executive Summary for Dummies? Avg. m/kWh at 45, 60 & 70 mph maybe?
From the battery (from the wall):
45mph = 4.85mi/kWh (3.94mi/kWh)
60mph = 3.70mi/kWh (3.04mi/kWh)
70mph = 2.92mi/kWh (2.48mi/kWh)
I was about to do that, thanks!

IMO, this is some of the most interesting data from this report, that the m/kWh seemed to test out considerably lower than that most have guessed...
Meaning, of course, that estimates of available battery capacity from range tests using higher m/kWh estimates may be suspect.
no condition is permanent

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evnow
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:09 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Meaning, of course, that estimates of available battery capacity from range tests using higher m/kWh estimates may be suspect.
It all depends on how the lab's numbers (m/kWh) corresponds to Leaf's m/kWh. Afterall, what we have to go by is what Leaf shows on the dash - not what the lab measured using special equipment by tapping directly to the battery output.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:22 pm

evnow wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Meaning, of course, that estimates of available battery capacity from range tests using higher m/kWh estimates may be suspect.
It all depends on how the lab's numbers (m/kWh) corresponds to Leaf's m/kWh. Afterall, what we have to go by is what Leaf shows on the dash...
I never have.

What compels you to do so?

After all the evidence that the dash m/kWh is not a reliable data source?

The dash m/kWh is nothing more than a lower-accuracy display of the miles driven and kWh use as reported by Carwings.

When I examined each of those factors individually for my LEAF, the errors in both were, and still are discernible.

As to the error in miles reported by the dash:


...All 2011-2 LEAFs, AFAIK, have reported the same Carwings odometer and Dash m/kWh error of consistently under-reporting by ~2.5%.

So if your CW miles driven is ~2.5% lower than your dash odometer miles, and your dash m/kWh is showing ~2.5% less than your nav screen m/kWh (0.1 m/kWh lower below ~6 m/kWh, and 0.2 m/kWh lower when you are getting over ~6 m/kWh) this is "normal" for 2011-2012 LEAFs.

Hopefully, Nissan has fixed this error in the 2013s. Any readers have a CW equipped 2013? Please check and report back...

The Dash, nav screen and CW m/kWh all are mathematically "correct" as a function of the total kWh use reported by CW for every trip, day, or months driving.

It's just that the dash uses the same ~2.5% understated miles to make its calculation of m/kWh as CW does, while the nav screen is always accurate as a function of reported kWh use, as it uses the dash odometer miles, for the m/kWh calculation.

Got it?

BTW, while every LEAF driver, AFAIK, has reported the dash odometer as very close to correct, while using stock tires and wheels, IMO it wouldn't hurt to confirm your dash odometer is correct, by checking with another source, such as Google maps...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11769" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As to the error in kWh used in the dash m/kWh, all evidence is it is not fixed, but variable between LEAFs, and at least in my LEAF, over time:
...If “gids” do reflect a variable amount of Wh, and they are the values used by the LEAF to calculate kWh use, then the capacity bar displays, dash and nav screen displays of m/kWh, as well as the Carwings calculations based on these same “gid” values, might be expected to be incorrect as well.

I now believe that this quite possibly could be the case.

I have been noticing an unexplained increase in my dash, nav Screen, and Carwings m/kWh results for a few months now, not only on this test trip, but on other trips, and my long term m/kWh averages.

Before I questioned the accuracies both of the screens and of Carwings, I thought the likely explanations for increased efficiency results, were increased efficiency, in either the driver or vehicle...

This does not seem to be what I am seeing.

I think that my range tests may indicate that whatever method my LEAF uses to calculate kWh, is variable, and has been significantly understating the recent amounts of kWh use, and has probably increasingly inflated all my m/kWh reports, from the dash, nav screen, and CW.

And of course, this could reflect Tick Tocks observations of variable “gid” Wh values. Gids with higher Wh content could lower the calculated kWh numbers, and raise all the m/kWh results....
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 4&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A few weeks after I wrote that, the Phoenix range test LEAFs, ostensibly with test variables controlled, were reported to have dash m/kWh displays varying from 3.7 to 4.4 (and BTW) averaging just over 4.2.

http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php? ... acity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why would you believe that any one's guess of the correct m/kWh value for any given speed, within the large ranges reported from the dash displays, could be depended on to accurately asses kWh use for all LEAFs?
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madbrain
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:59 pm

I don't really see anything surprising here. I think 65 miles range at 60 mph is pretty accurate and reflects my experience when driving on flat roads like 101. My vehicle is a 2012 still with all 12 bars and only 7100 miles on the odometer so far, coming on 8 months. I would not assume this was a vehicle with a degraded battery.

Today I drove a little over 80 miles total, mostly freeway, and I had to quick charge to make it back home even though I drove 65 mph on the first main freeway leg, and 58 mph on the return leg. I will have all the carwings data tomorrow. I have the data for first leg already which was 36.4 miles, 9.5 kWh (10.1 used / 0.6 recharged), coming to 3.8 miles/kWh .

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TonyWilliams
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:45 pm

madbrain wrote:I don't really see anything surprising here. I think 65 miles range at 60 mph is pretty accurate...
I know you and I have had some bizarre (to me, anyway) differences of opinion of what is normal. A new LEAF doesn't go only 65 miles with the heater off, level terrain, no wind, with a balanced pack at 70F degrees and 60 mph. While your car may or may not do that, neither your car nor your observations reflect the reality of a new LEAF. Here's some light reading:

Previous Planning for Sept 15, 2012 Phoenix Range Test

Sept 15, 2012 Phoenix Range Test

Subsequent 2013 LEAF-S Range Test on Feb 22, 2013

Subsequent 2012 & 2013 LEAF-SL Range Test, San Diego, March 8, 2013

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:44 am

madbrain wrote:I don't really see anything surprising here. I think 65 miles range at 60 mph is pretty accurate and reflects my experience when driving on flat roads like 101. My vehicle is a 2012 still with all 12 bars and only 7100 miles on the odometer so far, coming on 8 months. I would not assume this was a vehicle with a degraded battery.

Today I drove a little over 80 miles total, mostly freeway, and I had to quick charge to make it back home even though I drove 65 mph on the first main freeway leg, and 58 mph on the return leg. I will have all the carwings data tomorrow. I have the data for first leg already which was 36.4 miles, 9.5 kWh (10.1 used / 0.6 recharged), coming to 3.8 miles/kWh .

how much did you quick charge? (how many Kwh) what was your remaining capacity when you got home? (make sure you clarify how you got this) and what was miles/kwh for the trip?

on degradation; how often have you seen 7 TB's or more?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 4411.3 mi, 96.88% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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evnow
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:23 pm

edatoakrun wrote:I never have.

What compels you to do so?
Compel is a strong word. This is apparently a free country and nobody compels you to do such things.

Ofcourse, the initial driver was to find the useable capacity of the battery. Then, the idea was to give some help to owners to estimate "range left" in a way that is more accurate (or less inaccurate) than the GOM.

Let us look at it differently - how exactly would I use this new info from the lab ?
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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madbrain
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:15 am

Tony,
TonyWilliams wrote:
madbrain wrote:I don't really see anything surprising here. I think 65 miles range at 60 mph is pretty accurate...
I know you and I have had some bizarre (to me, anyway) differences of opinion of what is normal. A new LEAF doesn't go only 65 miles with the heater off, level terrain, no wind, with a balanced pack at 70F degrees and 60 mph. While your car may or may not do that, neither your car nor your observations reflect the reality of a new LEAF.
I didn't say I didn't use climate control. I had AC on. No idea what the battery temperature was. There was some wind.

I got partial data for yesterday from Carwings. Still missing the last leg from saturday because I stayed home all day sunday and the car didn't upload it to Carwings yet.

1. 9.5 kWh net / 10.1 kWh used / 0.6 kWh recharged . 36.4 miles driven . 3.8 miles/kWh .
2. 0.3 kWh net / 0.5 kWh used / 0.2 kWh recharged . 1.1 miles driven . 3.5 miles/kWh
3. 5.1 kWh net / 5.6 kWh used / 0.4 kWh recharged . 23.0 miles driven . 4.5 miles/kWh
4. 1.1 kWh net / 1.4 kWh used / 0.3 kWh recharged . 4.6 miles driven . 4.2 miles/kWh
5. 0.5 kWh net / 0.6 kWh used / 0.1 kWh recharged . 1.3 miles driven . 2.8 miles/kWh

First leg was home in San Jose to 680 to 101 to San Mateo. I kept freeway speed at 65mph. There is some downhill from my home to 680 which inflates the average miles/kWh.

Second leg is city driving in San Mateo.

Third leg was 101 freeway at 58 mph in a futile attempt to avoid charging before getting back home. Driving 58 on 101 is not fun. I exited at Lawrence to stop at Fry's in Sunnyvale. I don't have my Avcon adapter anymore, so I couldn't charge there. Fry's hasn't updated their L2 chargers yet, sadly. I saw several Leafs there parked in the EV spots near mine.

I had 1 bar left at that point. I was near Lawrence & 101, about 16 miles away from home . I know that my daily 13 mile commute from Montague & 101 takes 4 kWh and bars 3, 4 and 5 every day at 65 mph due to the uphill at the end. So, I didn't think I could make it home at that point even continuing to drive slowly on 101. I decided I needed to charge. Maybe there would have been enough reserve, but maybe not, but I was with my partner and not willing to chance getting stuck on the freeway and waiting for the Nissan tow truck.

Leg 4 is the trip from Fry's to the Santa Clara library. That is a 4.6 miles detour. By the time I got to the charger I was at LBW, zero bar blinking, 6 miles on GOM, after 65.1 miles of mostly freeway driving. The charger was still free, otherwise I would have been off to Stevens Creek Nissan about a mile away.

Leg 5 is to a store on Lawrence & Homestead. Not sure why the miles/kWh are so low for this leg as this is city driving & flat.

The last leg that's still missing in Carwings is about 15 miles, again mostly freeway, plus the uphill at the end. I expect about 4 to 5 kWh.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:35 am

madbrain wrote:By the time I got to the charger I was at LBW, zero bar blinking, 6 miles on GOM, after 65.1 miles of mostly freeway driving.
It's hard to say exactly how much usable energy you had remaining, but we do know that it's between:

3.1kWh (Low Batt Warning)

and

1.3kWh (Very Low Batt... GOM goes to "---")


As I stated to you previously, range is stored usable energy multiplied by economy:

KWh * miles/kWh = Range in miles

If we just estimate and split the difference at 2kWh usable remaining, and it appears that your driving style can achieve 4 miles per kWh, then a very rough guess of remaining range is:

2 * 4 = 8 miles

When climate control is on, it will be reflected in your economy, as will going up and down hills, etc. if you had a Gidmeter, you would know somewhat accurately how much energy remains. The two Low Battery warnings are indexed to that 3.1kWh and 1.3kWh regardless of battery degradation.

The fuel bars, CarWings, and the GOM are not the best tools to use to determine how much range might remain after your 65 mile drive. The next time you are unsure of your remaining range, AND you have already seen the LBW or VLB warning, you'll be ready.

With experience, you will learn to reset one of your trip odometers at LBW, and then assuming you can accurately determine your economy (again, I'll just use 4), you'll know that:

3.1 * 4 = 12.4 miles range remaining, then minus however many miles from the trip meter. If you drove 4.5 miles since you reset it at LBW, then:

12.4 miles minus 4.5 = 7.9 miles remaining. At some point you'll get VLB (with the GOM at "---") at which point you'll be able to do the calculation again (and once again reset your trip meter):

1.3 * 4 = 5.2 miles range remaining. That should be enough to keep you out of trouble. Estimating your economy could take a whole 'nother post or two.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:47 am, edited 3 times in total.

madbrain
Posts: 281
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:38 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote: how much did you quick charge? (how many Kwh)
How would I get that information ? Is there a way for the Blink charger to tell me the kWh recharged ?

When I plugged in, the screen of the Blink charger said my car reported 0% charge. I thought that couldn't be right because there is some reserve battery after LBW.
But when the charge actually started, it was going up from about 18%. I thought that was a little high.

There was no one around and I set it to charge to 100% and shopping. I got a text 30 mins later that the charge stopped. I came back to the car within 5 minutes. The charger said the car was at 90%, not 100%. I don't know why the charge did not complete to 100%.

I started another session at 100%. It went pretty quickly to 98%, then became slow. I stopped there.
I was surprised to see that my Leaf had only 10 bars. I was expecting 11.

I logged in to Blinknetwork and see that the first session was 30 minutes and 10 seconds.
The second session was 6 minutes 24 seconds.
I called Blink to let them know about the charge interruption.
what was your remaining capacity when you got home? (make sure you clarify how you got this) and what was miles/kwh for the trip?
I don't know what the remaining capacity was when I got home. I don't recall exactly how many bars I had remaining. I didn't make a note of it, probably 7 or 8 bars left.
I can't tell how much was recharged either. My L2 charger at home is a non-networked model.

I looked for a text notification of the end of the end of charge on my cell phone, but it looks like I never got one, so I have no idea when the charge finished. The cell service used by the Leaf is very unreliable on the hill, and works less than half the time. I'm at the edge of the coverage, and when the car is in the garage with the door closed, the coverage is a crapshoot.

I should get the miles/kwh for the last trip tomorow.
on degradation; how often have you seen 7 TB's or more?
What ? I had to lookup what you mean by TB. Can't say I pay much attention to them except after the quick charges. I couldn't tell you how many temperature bars there are, much less if I got seven. But the gauge has never gotten into the red area after any of my quick charges. My car has done a grand total of 10 quick charges according to blinknetwork.com, and that's counting the interrupted charges . I have never quick charged on any other network or at dealers.

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