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TonyWilliams
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:36 pm

LEAFfan wrote: These figures are just ridiculous. Those from the battery are so far off that it is just plain silly.
If I drove a steady 45mph, I would get at least 5.3m/kW h on my dash and would easily drive 115 miles. I don't need some useless CW that is NEVER as accurate as my car. When I drove 188 miles on one charge, my dash showed 8.8m/kW h and if you X by 21, you can see how damn accurate it really is. My 2011 was super accurate also. What a waste of time it would be to use CW!
The differences between those that have, and those that never will ;-)

edatoakrun
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:35 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
LEAFfan wrote: These figures are just ridiculous. Those from the battery are so far off that it is just plain silly.
If I drove a steady 45mph, I would get at least 5.3m/kW h on my dash and would easily drive 115 miles. I don't need some useless CW that is NEVER as accurate as my car. When I drove 188 miles on one charge, my dash showed 8.8m/kW h and if you X by 21, you can see how damn accurate it really is. My 2011 was super accurate also. What a waste of time it would be to use CW!
The differences between those that have, and those that never will ;-)
Yes, with these tests we now probably have an accurate view of LEAF m/kWh at the constant speed conditions.

And those who continue to prefer to believe in fairy tales sourced from the highly variable and inaccurate CarWings/dash m/kWh never will .

The principle reason that these tests of a LEAFs range and battery capacity are credible is that they do not use the dash display of the CarWings m/kWh which both of you have depended on to determine both total kWh capacity and m/kWh.

If either of you, or any other MNL members have substantive criticisms of the DOE test methodology, please state them.

The arguments attacking the test results on this thread up to this point, IMO, amount to nothing more than "...my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

Whoever is maintaining the Battery Capacity Loss section of the MNL Wiki might want to update it, and in particular make note of the fact that these test results seem to indicate that the % New Car Capacity column on the Tempe range test would now seem to understate the percentage of "new" capacity achieved by all the test LEAFS by ~10% (?).

http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php? ... acity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have not depended on the dash m/kWh/CarWings kWh use reports since I first saw what appeared to be a significant error in the reports from MY LEAF about a year ago, and reported it on MNL last August:
...I think that my range tests may indicate that whatever method my LEAF uses to calculate kWh, is variable, and has been significantly understating the recent amounts of kWh use, and has probably increasingly inflated all my m/kWh reports, from the dash, nav screen, and CW...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 4&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since my own LEAF's range test data is uncontaminated by any Leaf "gauge error", I feel fairly confident in my results, showing that my warm-climate LEAF, now with ~27 months and 19,000 miles from the factory, has lost virtually no range (and therefore, probably only a relatively small amount of battery capacity) since my first range tests ~21 months ago, when My LEAF had ~3,300 miles on the odometer.
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edatoakrun
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:22 am

I have sent and received a few Emails RE the history behind LEAF 0356 and the several capacity and range tests linked on the first page of this thread.

The latest questions, and the replies, are copied below.

Sounds like we can expect more reports on this car in the not-too-distant future.

IMO. without more details of charging history, and time spent at what SOC and where parked, I don't think you should interpret this LEAFs "courier" use, or the available battery capacity shown, as typical for an Arizona LEAF.
Ed - more info below.
-XXX

For all AVTA testing, the vehicles begin baseline testing between 4,000 to 6,000 miles. The typical sequence is to accumulate 4,000 break-in miles on a vehicle with a Phoenix-based courier fleet, then conduct track testing at a local Phoenix proving ground (testing is allowed between 40 and 100 °F), conduct initial battery testing on the vehicle at ECOtality in Phoenix after track testing, then ship to Argonne National Lab in Chicago to conduct fuel economy testing on the dynamometer.

Due to a coastdown study conducted on the 2011 Nissan Leaf, the battery baseline testing began after the dynamometer fuel economy testing was complete. This particular vehicle, Leaf 0356, remained in the Phoenix area for all testing beyond the Argonne National Lab fuel economy testing. Leaf 0356 has moved back into our local courier fleet to continue accumulating mileage.

Future battery testing results at 12,000 miles of mileage accumulation will be published. The vehicle will remain in the fleet until 60,000 miles, when an end-of-life test will be conducted on the battery with results published on the AVTA website.

Additional information on the particulars for Leaf 0356 include:
2011 Nissan Leaf 0356
Date and Mileage Information:
Baseline track testing date (at track) 11/1/2011
Baseline track testing mileage (at track), 3,946 miles
Baseline fuel economy testing date (at ANL): 1/26/2012
Baseline fuel economy testing mileage (at ANL) 4,584 miles
Baseline battery testing date (at ECOtality): 5/5/2012
Baseline battery testing mileage (at ECOtality): 6,696 miles



On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Ed Marek

XXX,

So, were both those published tests on this car done at approximately the same time and odometer mileage?

Also:

Has this LEAF spent it’s entire service life in the Phoenix area, or also spent time in cooler climates?

Are you planning to publish further test results on the same car in the future?

Thanks again,

Ed
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edatoakrun
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:26 pm

DOE has posted more details of it's test program for 2 2011 LEAFs and one 2013.
Full Size Electric Vehicles


Vehicle Testing Reports


2013 Nissan Leaf

Nissan Leaf

•Maintenance History VIN 5045


2011 Nissan Leaf

Nissan Leaf

•Baseline Performance Testing (PDF 144KB)
•Fleet Testing Fuel Economy (PDF 97KB)
•Battery Testing - When New (0356) (PDF 161KB)
•Maintenance History VIN 0178, VIN 0356
http://avt.inel.gov/fsev.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No further capacity, range or m/kWh results posted yet, but more on the 2011's:
2011 Nissan Leaf BEV Accelerated Testing – June 2013
Two model year 2011 Nissan Leaf battery electric vehicles (BEVs) entered Accelerated testing during March 2011 in a fleet in Arizona. Each Leaf will be operated for 60,000 miles, at which point their traction batteries will be tested before they are retired (one battery is also tested when new). One-page vehicle maintenance logs are posted on nearby www pages. This information includes the date and mileage for all maintenance and repairs performed on the vehicles. The two 2011 Nissan Leaf BEVs have been driven a total of 47,191 miles. Note that initial mileage accumulation was slow due to baseline performance and battery testing...
http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/2011nissanleaf_ar.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

0356 has had battery work done since the previous testing:
...3/13/2013 22,606 Replaced two battery modules in battery pack - under warranty...
http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/ms2011leaf0356.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:48 pm

Replying to the off-topic comments below posted at:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 17#p315417" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
surfingslovak:

...Another thing I've noticed: the energy economy listed in the report was calculated from their lab instruments, yet you made a reference to NTB11-076a assuming that the dash gauge will show the same figure...
No, you missed my point entirely.

The dash/Carwings m/kWh is clearly not to be relied upon unless corrected both for miles driven (correctable with outside mapping, such as Google) and also for kWh used, using accurate sources, which I expect that these capacity tests from DOE are.

Neither of which you can accomplish, IMO, unless you have functional Carwings, and are willing to use it, in order to see both factors, and any errors in them in isolation.

I posted RE the identical dash/Carwings milage error more than two years ago, which is more clearly explained (I hope) on this thread from last Winter:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11769" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I first noticed the identical dash/Carwings kWh use error, and posted my obsertvations over a year ago on this thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 4&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unfortunately, many still use the identical dash/Carwings m/kWh in their capacity calculations, despite the preponderance of evidence that they are unreliable, without verification and/or correction of both factors, as required.
surfingslovak :

Ah, here we go. Since the test LEAF was located in Phoenix, it would be interesting to know how it was garaged and operated and if it was purchased there new. Additional details should be made available by the lab to help explain some of the discrepancies in their published data. Anyone care to contact them?...


See my post above on this thread re history and conditions of use and testing.

I can see no discrepancies in their published data.

What are you referring to?

The most significant omission I would still want to inquire about is the temperatures of the battery packs while charging before the range tests, which I was never able to find in any of the multiple links.

Hopefully a Phoenix LEAFer would be able to follow up to answer this, and any other questions any may still have.
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JeffN
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:06 pm

drees wrote: Interesting fact: The LEAF uses less power at 45 mph than the Volt (9.2 kW vs 10.1 kW). At 70 mph they are basically the same, but the Volt edges out the LEAF (22.8 kW vs 22.7 kW). The Volt is clearly more aerodynamic.
Sorry for the late reply on this message. I'm catching up on my forum reading...

Another factor is the Volt transmission which clutches the smaller of the two motors into the planetary gears at around 60 mph in EV mode in order to split the effort between the two motors and run at lower motor RPMs to gain efficiency.

donald
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:56 pm

The other things that, I think (?), do not seem to be emphasised here to those wondering about the DOE test figures and what they 'think' they are getting are:-

a) The DOE measures REAL electricity into the vehicle, not simply that 'used'. This therefore also takes into account the efficiency of the charger and battery take-up of the energy. (Just consider the difference of that between a 95% efficient charger/battery, and a 75% value!? So, how do you know what efficiency your charger/battery is operating at?)

b) The DOE will measure ACTUAL speed of the car, whereas speedometers are set to under-read. So when they test at 50mph, the dash might be reading, say, 53mph.

To note also - the DOE figure is likely to, actually, be an underestimate of energy used. This is because the battery undergoes a self-discharge over time, whereas the DOE measures the input energy promptly after the test drive is done.

Also, the method appears to use the standard coast-down technique, with the dyno control figures typically derived from tests done in Arizona (favoured by the auto industry due to low pressure & high temp). Both the method and the test location are favourable to getting good consumption figures rather than bad ones.

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evnow
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:13 pm

edatoakrun wrote:I have sent and received a few Emails RE the history behind LEAF 0356 and the several capacity and range tests linked on the first page of this thread.
One thing I'd like to see them do is to also note down the Leaf instrumentation values.
- m/kWh on the dash
- miles drives on the dash

This will give us some idea about the difference between what they are reporting what Leaf reports. For these numbers to be useful, we need this comparison. So, it would be great if you can suggest this to them in your future emails.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

edatoakrun
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:56 pm

evnow wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:I have sent and received a few Emails RE the history behind LEAF 0356 and the several capacity and range tests linked on the first page of this thread.
One thing I'd like to see them do is to also note down the Leaf instrumentation values.
- m/kWh on the dash
- miles drives on the dash

This will give us some idea about the difference between what they are reporting what Leaf reports. For these numbers to be useful, we need this comparison. So, it would be great if you can suggest this to them in your future emails.
I really doubt that data would be useful, since IMO, all evidence shows that the error in m/kWh dash/NAV screen readings, the Carwings kWh reports, and the gid meter and app reported kWh use vary greatly from LEAF to LEAF, and in individual LEAFs over time.

What would be very useful, IMO, is to see if all these sources reflected a common (or very similar, as seems to be the case for my LEAF) kWh use report error in individual LEAFs, during a single driving efficiency test.

As I replied to you ~2 months ago, on the previous page of this thread, The DOE m/kWh test data should allow each of us to determine the accuracy of our LEAF's energy consumption Data from a test at any one of the three constant speeds.

Why don't you give it a try?

Since no one has posted any actual test results here, maybe what I wrote below about my LEAF was not clear enough as a suggestion:

edatoakrun wrote:
="evnow"

...What I ultimately want to find out is - how many miles can I go if I'm getting, say 5.0 m/kWh on the dash. That is a question these lab results don't answer.
Nor (in all likelihood) can they, without additional effort on your part.

I know the answer for my LEAF for 5.0 m/kWh on the nav screen is presently ~81 miles from "100%" to VLBW, after recharging at ~75F, but that is only because I know that CarWings presently reports ~16.2 kWh used between those SOC levels.

But I'm pretty sure the ~16.2 kWh number is incorrect for my LEAF, and I don't think there is any reason to expect it would be correct for your LEAF, or for any other.

So while knowing the kWh capacity reported by CarWings, which is used to display the m/kWh on the nav screen, and (with ~2.5% miles error) on the dash is invaluable for my trip planning, it could never tell me what my actual kWh use was without a reference test, showing accurate kWh use in a controlled constant speed range test.

And now, with these test results, I believe I just may have the data I need.

To restate this in general terms for all LEAFs:

1) First you have to determine the error if any or both individual factors in your dash or nav screen m/kWh readout.

Find the actual miles of your test course, and the nominal kWh your LEAF is reporting on your dash/ Nav screen.

Find the miles using an online source, such as Google maps.

Find both your LEAF's reported miles, and reported nominal kWh use, as reported from Carwings.

Since these two factors are only reported separately on CarWings, I am unaware of any way a LEAF driver who does not have CarWings, or who refuses to use it, can determine the accuracy or errors in the Dash/Nav screen m/kWh displays.

In my own and many other 2011 and 2012 LEAFs with stock tires, the nav screen reports (correct) odometer miles/nominal kWh, and the dash reports (~2.5% lower) CarWings miles driven/nominal kWh, but check for yourself!

2) Now, conduct a kWh consumption test over a fixed distance at one of the constant speeds from the DOE tests.

There is no requirement, IMO, to begin precisely at 100% (which would only be possible if you charged at, or towed your LEAF to, the start of the route) or run all the way to "turtle", though the greatest discharge will give you the best sample, and the one closest to the "100%" to past-turtle SOC range that the DOE used.

The devil is in the details, of course.

The DOE has a a traffic-free and near-level test track, can choose a test date with low wind conditions, and in every other way comply with the ~30 pages of test procedures (read them all before you try).

We have to make do with what is available, but near every LEAFer should be able to approximate "November in Phoenix" temps, during some season, and adjust their results for altitude, as required.

The greatest problem, for some (like me) is the lack of available level and constant-speed test routes near our homes.

Remember to consider both the ambient and battery temperatures of the DOE tests.

If you drive a long way to your test route, then immediately charge before the test (don't even consider a DC charge...) you will probably heat the battery so much as to invalidate the efficiency results, just as you would invalidate your range test results by testing with a hot battery.

FYI, I did try a short and extremely rough ~45 mph test of my LEAF last June, and got ~5.3 m/kWh from my nav screen (which in my LEAF, accurately reflects the actual miles driven, and the identical nominal kWh use reported by my LEAF , on the dash, the nav screen and form CarWings).

That's ~9% higher than the 4.85 m/kWh from the DOE LEAF, #0356 driven at 45 mph.

The problem was, my best nearby opportunity being a very short route, ~22 miles round trip, and also over a gently rolling route requiring some regen to maintain speed, I really can't say whether that 5.3 m/kWh represented accuracy within a few percent, or more like within ~ten percent.

And the only DOE test reported so far is on a LEAF ~9 months from the factory with ~4k miles.

So, if there is a significant increase (or decrease) in LEAF efficiency over time, miles driven, or charge cycles, we will only know it when or if the DOE publishes more test results.

Meaning that, until it cools down a bit more, and I can attempt a much better controlled and longer test, and the DOE publishes data on a LEAF with mileage closer to my own, I really don't think I will know for sure whether my nav screen/ Dash, CarWings and my battery app (with only a few months data myself) are reporting a common kWh use report error, or not.
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edatoakrun
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Re: LEAF Range and kWh use, at 45, 60 and 70 mph DOE tests

Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:32 am

In case you missed it, the tested pack for 2011 LEAF...00356 (initial test results on page 1) was replaced under warranty last year, and no more reports from the AVTA since.
BEV Fleet Testing
Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity
Maintenance Sheet for 2011 Nissan Leaf SL
VIN# JN1AZ0CP5BT000356
Date Mileage Description Cost
6/15/2011 1,890 Reprogram VCM Control Unit - software update N/C
5/25/2012 7,677 Reprogram VCM, TCU, and Battery Control Unit - software update N/C
11/19/2012 15,500 Rotated tires N/C
3/13/2013 22,606 Replaced two battery modules in battery pack - under warranty N/C
5/8/2013 24,057 Service call on flat tire $50.00
5/9/2013 24,061 Replaced one tire $134.97
2/6/2014 30,077 30K mile service $170.32
5/2/2014 31,721 Replaced battery pack - under warranty N/C
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/ms2011leaf0356BEV.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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