# of miles before losing the first battery capacity bar

0-10,000
7%
26
10,001-20,000
21%
83
20,001-30,000
29%
113
30,001-40,000
24%
93
40,001-50,000
12%
46
50,001-60,000
3%
13
60,001+
5%
19
 
Total votes: 393
DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14462
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:15 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:57 pm
So recommendation "keep it between 20%-80%" doesn't hold.

Not in your usage case, in your cold climate. Your pack could use a full charge to equalize the cells, though.
I agree the "avoiding low SOC helps preserve pack" theory is alarmist and likely to reduce the number of people being stranded. It was started because the ideology is higher current is needed at lower voltages to provide the same level of power. Well, its rather apparent the higher current is not all that detrimental.

As far as charging to full to balance the pack? I got my E Plus and it was charged to 100% and the balance was not all that great. Since then, it has never seen 100% (hit 75% a few times) but the pack balance is now "ok" and getting better.

But I have a different car. The only thing that is the same is "part" of the name.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dLfHgrt23jFrHx6y6
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WetEV
Posts: 3364
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:14 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:15 am
I agree the "avoiding low SOC helps preserve pack" theory is alarmist and likely to reduce the number of people being stranded. It was started because the ideology is higher current is needed at lower voltages to provide the same level of power.
Ah, perhaps because lower SOC speeds capacity loss?

Among other references:

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php ... ion_to_die

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:15 am
Well, its rather apparent the higher current is not all that detrimental.
Do remember that higher currents (such as a DCQC) seem to convince the BMS that there is more capacity in the battery. SOC as estimated by the BMS isn't that accurate.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14462
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:27 am

WetEV wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:14 am
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:15 am
I agree the "avoiding low SOC helps preserve pack" theory is alarmist and likely to reduce the number of people being stranded. It was started because the ideology is higher current is needed at lower voltages to provide the same level of power.
Ah, perhaps because lower SOC speeds capacity loss?

Among other references:

https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php ... ion_to_die

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:15 am
Well, its rather apparent the higher current is not all that detrimental.
Do remember that higher currents (such as a DCQC) seem to convince the BMS that there is more capacity in the battery. SOC as estimated by the BMS isn't that accurate.
Well, lets look at user claims. We have TONS who claim to treat their packs like royalty. Never charged over 80%, never discharged under 20%. Leaves immediately on road trips when 100% charge is complete, yada yada. There are literally hundreds of claims like these out there but many saw more than the norm in degradation rates anyway.

This includes someone you might know who exercised the 80% charging until he had lost 5 bars and no longer had a choice but to charge to 100%. He drove little; maybe 7,000 miles a year and lived in Seattle. So he did everything right and everything went wrong.

But we also have people who QC'd constantly, drove a lot so there was simply no realistic way to avoid discharging to a very low SOC and that group includes me. But the one thing that seems common amongst us was when hitting that low SOC, we immediately charged back up again using QC most of the time and went on our way, frequently surpassing the average degradation curve by quite a margin.

So what does all that mean?

Well, could be a lot of things involved but its become apparent to me that the time factor or how long the battery remains in any state has been played down or outright ignored. There is little argument that cars driven more seem to fare better. Li thrives on exercise? Or is the the simple fact that a small pack never sits at high or low SOC due to its being in near constant use?

We look at Nissan's testing process for their Gen one packs which we now know is their weakest product by a huge margin.

The pack was put in an oven set at 140º and then charged for 60 mins and then discharged for 20 minutes. IOW; they put the pack thru hell for nearly a month running these cycles 24/7 and the pack lost 10% which is the reason Nissan was so confident their pack would easily last 100,000 miles.

but they failed to realize that an 80 minute charge/discharge is not real life (like DUH!)

So what is right? There is a LEAFer in Pierce County I am sure you have heard about. He Level 2 charges to full every day, QC's twice a day. He has 145,000 (well over that by now actually) miles and barely HALFWAY to losing his FIRST capacity bar on a 24 kwh pack. He claims its his driving style where most of his commute is 50 mph country roads that slow to 25 mph passing thru every little town on his route. Maybe...but I think his nearly 4,000 miles a month is a much greater factor.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

salyavin
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Dec 2019
Leaf Number: 318726
Location: Littleton , CO

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:07 am

Thank you Dave, this is an interesting theory that may be worth taking a closer look at. I own a Prius and also hear for those that their batteries don't like the car being used too little and if not driven enough it can shorten the battery life of those (much smaller) packs. Hearing that from the hybrid side also makes me wonder if you might be right. So much guessing going on with this somewhat new technology.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1287
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:27 pm

Dave,

I agree with you completely. I think time causes as much degradation as heavy hot usage.

I would say the only consistency is that very cold climates (like Yukon) seems to have slower rates of battery fade.

I am very excited to see how the 40 and 62 kW packs hold up. Additionally if the 2019 40 packs hold up better than the 2018 40 packs.

I just wish Nissan wanted to compete harder in the EV segment. I think we are witnessing a future business school case study in why leadership is critical to a company’s success.
2019 SV Plus Silver 6/19 purchase 6,800 M
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14462
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:08 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:27 pm
Dave,

I agree with you completely. I think time causes as much degradation as heavy hot usage.

I would say the only consistency is that very cold climates (like Yukon) seems to have slower rates of battery fade.

I am very excited to see how the 40 and 62 kW packs hold up. Additionally if the 2019 40 packs hold up better than the 2018 40 packs.

I just wish Nissan wanted to compete harder in the EV segment. I think we are witnessing a future business school case study in why leadership is critical to a company’s success.
Being part of LAB, the lack of new plug ins from Nissan is rather weird. I think it all boiled down to Nissan corporate strategy of expanding their gasser options was simply too strong for Andy Palmer and Ghosn to overcome. Palmer leaving is when the EV push seemingly kicked into a much lower gear. I think Ghosn just had too much opposition. However...

It seems obvious to me (5 LEAFs to compare makes my job easier than for most) that Nissan is improving yearly. It is the prototypical Japanese way; Slow steady tweaking. Toyota has been doing it for years and it works...for gassers. EVs being a much greater shift in ideology should have innovated faster but Nissan missed that fact. Toyota still hasn't figured it out. Improvements aren't always straightforward however due to the huge variety of driving experiences and need. This issue is complicated by the masses many who claim "just drive it" or "I plug it in as soon as i get home and my batteries are fine" w/o any other details, etc.

All this is simply mixing the "real" message we should be transmitting. Its quite ironic that we early adopters feel we won't be heard until there is a much greater acceptance by the general population but as more come on board, the message has become more confusing than ever. We have several people who make statements that can't possibly be true but each statement, no matter how outlandish, still sucks someone in.

Now, the LEAF is hardly the best EV option out there but then again, all of them have pluses and minuses. Its all about what area you want to compromise. Now we will get a lot of arguments over this by people whose only bullet is quoting MSRP's, but the LEAF on a per mile basis, is one of the cheapest options out there. Bolt is cheap as well but has its own compromises, especially on its QC speed which I am still not quite understanding when it has TMS?? but slow Bolt charging speed in VERY mild winter temperatures is quite extreme as in like 50% of normal speed! :shock:

One of the BIG (if not the only) reason for me taking the big financial leap to the E Plus was charging speed. Soon, I will be on my own; free DC charging perks a thing of the past so its all about the cost per mile. This means more stops, shorter driving stints, etc. I will be investigating the viability of simply "driving below the knee" the knee being the point when the current starts dropping increasing my cost per kwh received.

I recently took a trip to test this a bit and got the somewhat expected (with a few surprises both good and bad) results which is simply more proof the E plus pack is a very large step forward from my 2018 40 kwh pack. Other than a 130 mile stretch with no DC charging (this means nearly NOTHING on the L2 side either!) Now The E Plus still has Rapidgate issues albeit not as much as the smaller 40 kwh pack and that should be obvious. Its bigger, has more modules, etc. It also seems to shed heat much better than my 40 kwh did.

Since it was Winter, we have range challenges (I averaged 3.5 miles/kwh for half the trip which is more than .5 kwh worse than normal for clear dry conditions in the low 40's) but speed "might" have been a factor. But Rapidgate/Icegate was what I was looking to quantify.

https://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2019/1 ... -love.html
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1287
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:08 am

Dave

Thanks for the continued blog, and I agree on the points. I do think that once Carlos left, there was some upper management bonus stuffing at the cost of innovation and long term strategy. It’s always a shame, but human nature. The result is brand loss of confidence and value. It takes leadership and vision to bet on a car you will lose money on for years before turning a profit. Tesla has the advantage of a start up where that is the expectation. It’s much harder for established companies to take the same risks. Hence what you see is small investments and incremental improvements. I do think Nissan now must be making a margin in the Leaf given how much battery prices have fallen.

I do think that the legacy companies are waking up to the fact that if they don’t do it soon, they will not be here in 10 years. They all need to move faster, even if it means taking a hit to share price.

When I watched the Aria preview at the Tokyo show, it was if they pretended that Tesla didn’t exist. Nothing much in that prototype was really that revolutionary.

If Nissan went to a fixed price model for just the Leaf, at say 27k and 32k to start, sales would double or better. But that again takes leadership which is in short supply at Nissan.
2019 SV Plus Silver 6/19 purchase 6,800 M
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14462
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
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Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:34 am

It is sad that Nissan is like any other legacy manufacturer in that only the most extreme situation has the potential to create change. VW is a good example and there is little doubt in my mind that they would still be clinging to their turbo diesels had the US not led the charge to put the hammer down on them.

But Nissan is clinging to the Titanic. EVs did not cause their demise. When you look at the future of personal transportation, the only thing that is obvious is that EVs will have a MUCH greater role but that role does not come w/o massive investments which Nissan did not do. Yeah, they started out great but failed to progress. The LEAF could never have led an EV revolution on its own. The marketing of the EnV in selected areas only was a head scratcher from day one. Its been 9 years and the "leader of the highway capable EV" is stuck in neutral with no additional models in sight.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1287
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:18 pm

Ok, paid a few bucks in the name of science. Here is the fuller charge, but did not see a hard knee.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OAtxiz ... p=drivesdk

Peak of 74.8 kW this time. 35 min from 9% to 71% on dash or 16.8 LS to 71.
2019 SV Plus Silver 6/19 purchase 6,800 M
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14462
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:45 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:18 pm
Ok, paid a few bucks in the name of science. Here is the fuller charge, but did not see a hard knee.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OAtxiz ... p=drivesdk

Peak of 74.8 kW this time. 35 min from 9% to 71% on dash or 16.8 LS to 71.
What was max current?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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