2011 Leaf Battery Replacement - sink or float?

[Reddy]

Is it better to drive from let's say 80-90% charge down to 1 or 2 bars, or to stay in mid-range 40-80% and do a mid-day charge. Higher charge and lower discharge, VS. more charging cycles?

It is always better to cycle the battery more times with lower discharge, but near the 50% point. For example if you need 6 bars to get from point A to B everyday, then it is best to charge to 9 bars and discharge to 3 bars. Obviously, you need to preserve whatever reserve feels comfortable for you, but a lower "average" state of charge (SOC) is better for long term storage/use. Most people "over charge" (e.g., fill to 90-100% daily and then only discharge to 40-60% SOC after the day's driving).

However, I wouldn't worry about it since the effect is much less than 1) high battery temperature, 2) high speed charging/discharging (this includes "spirited" driving with heavy acceleration/deceleration), 3) average high freeway speeds, and 4) leaving the battery in a high state of charge. People have heavily debated all of these things for the past 5 years and there are still lots of unknowns. However, there have been cases where two users in identical locations had significant (still small, but measurable) differences in battery degradation. In these cases, it usually came down to "spirited" or high-speed highway driving/charging causing slightly more degradation (10-20%).

Just use the vehicle as much as you can. Calendar time will get them all in the end. I've seen 20% degradation and have less than 30,000 mi on the car, mostly all low speed city driving. That is the curse of a low mileage driver. I've babied the battery, charging between 30%-80% nearly exclusively, and with low speed city driving (nearly 6 mi/KWh in summer). I'm not happy about the loss and it's certainly much more than Nissan advertised. Unfortunately, I'm pretty much screwed but at least I will still be able to drive for groceries in another 10 years (I was hoping for 20 yrs). The record high mileage driver (TaylorSFGuy) clocked in nearly 80,000 miles before he lost 15%, but that was in a moderate climate and driving about 140 miles per day! Drive on, and enjoy.

[minispeed]

sorry but this is not what you want to hear but I can't accept the fact that anyone would want to push their range by "driving along with everyone else" excuse because it is simply that; an excuse.
San Diego is no different that nearly any other place in CA. trucks must drive slower and there is nothing that says you can’t drive with them ...

First, everybody thanks for your comments. From one of the suggestions, to charge during the day, another question came to my mind:
Is it better to drive from let's say 80-90% charge down to 1 or 2 bars, or to stay in mid-range 40-80% and do a mid-day charge.
Higher charge and lower discharge, VS. more charging cycles?

About excuses: "Driving along with everyone else" means exactly what you are saying: Be with others in the slow lane. What it doesn't mean is to be slower than all others and have every car or truck, who somehow, ended up behind you, have to go around you (often in a rage). The fact that we need to drive like this to get listed range, is cheating the customer, in a way.

I'm sorry, but I just can't understand some people who are defending Nissan and expecting us all to comply with Nissan nonsense. Somehow I am doing things wrong if I believed Nissan's statement and (somehow non-binding) promise that batteries should last 90%=5 years, 70% 10 years, and I believed them saying 62-132miles range? It didn't say anywhere that I need to drive like a grandma to get those 62 miles. Nissan tech tested my Leaf when it had just a couple of thousand miles on it, and with 5.0miles per kW he got 72 miles. That was good enough for Nissan to blow me off (as it was more than 62 miles). Every time when I asked, "calculate the capacity from there", or "what do i need to do to get those 132 miles?", the answer was "He drove between 62 and 132 miles, there is nothing wrong with your car or battery". Like a broken record, no matter what I asked!

And if some people like to put their head down, go along with the manufacturer, pretend that everything is fine, they got what they paid for, by driving 55 on the freeway, I'm sorry, I'm not one of those. Casual drive on the freeway is 65-80mph, depending on the traffic flow as everybody else is. If almost everybody is breaking the law, then something might be wrong with that regulation? Lot of people, when there is a need, go 96 down the hill in the Leaf. They don't expect 132 miles range, but, also, not 22 miles range.
If manufacturer wants to sell the car here, that car needs to be capable of doing what local traffic, climate etc. demand. There is a reason why golf carts are not certified for freeway use.

Cheers!

The test parameters that that give the leaf a range of 62-132 miles are not set by Nissan. There's a lot of error in the range numbers given out and I really think that the EPA should mandate a highway only range advertised with the speed used and a summer/winter test for each range. Also the numbers quoted are total range, I almost guarantee that when the Nissan leaf tech got 72 miles on your car his goal was to drive it over 62, then head back to the dealer. I would be shocked if he actually hit turtle at 72. It's difficult to test to turtle mode realistically because due to human nature most people will do the last bit of testing running a slow loop around a place that they can charge so they don't get stuck which doesn't reflect the real world. There's a good chance that after that test the car could have gone another 25 miles or more to turtle.

From what you have written it sounds like you drive mostly highway in which case you should expect to be at the lower end of the range. There are a couple things you can do to maximize your range. The first thing I would want to know to give you advice is what tires you have on the car and what pressure you run them at?

With the millage you have it's probable that you are not on the original tires. If you purchased a non low rolling resistance tire (or even another brand that is listed as LRR) they can affect your range a lot. If you are still on the original tires and thinking of replacing soon buying a set of 205 60 16 Michelin Energy Savers will probably be the best bet. The 205 55 16 size is stock and a little undersized for the car. The 205 60 16s are close in diameter to the 17in wheels that are an upgrade on other leafs.

As for tire pressure IIRC the leaf recommends a high pressure, either 36 or 38. Many tire shops, and even leaf dealers are lazy and set to an all car standard 30-32 psi. Many of them also do this hot after the car has been driven or out in the sun but the pressure should be set cold, ie first thing in the morning after the car has sat out of the sun. Many people run 44psi which is safe in all but cheap no name tires. I run 51psi in mine and it really helps. It does ride harsher but you get use to it. 44-46psi is a good compromise between ride and range.

As for speed I can understand how you don't want to be the person holding people up but have you actually tried driving at lets say 62 mph constant in the slow lane and had many people demonstrate aggressive gestures to you? If you don't want to be the person holding people up you can drive what you feel is the flow but look out for slower moving trucks and when you have the chance drop in behind them and then you get to go slow, you aren't the one holding anyone up and you get the added benefit of a slight aero advantage from being behind a truck. From someone who has been driving at 96-98% of the speed limit for 2 years I've noticed that there are a lot of other vehicles out there going the same speed, yes there are aggressive drivers but you really have to ask yourself if there is an accident what do you think is safer, 2 vehicles going 80mph with a large space but shorter time gap between them or 2 vehicles going 55 mph with a shorter time gap and less space between them? I use to drive 135-140% of the limit whenever I could and I enjoy my drives a lot more now and even with tail gaiters I think I'm much safer now. If you don't want to go slower on the highway your other choice (although it may be too much time) is to get on/off the highway at different points. Even pushing it 1 entry/exit at each side of the trip might give you enough of a bump in range to make it more comfortable.

I would also like to know if you are charging to 100% or 80%. Since it sounds like you're not happy if this is 80% charging I would recommend going to 100% every time you plan on using the car first thing in the morning. What you really want to avoid is having the car sit through the day at 100%. If you're not happy with the car at 80% what does it matter to you if it lasts 5 more years or only 3? If it does end up lasting the same amount of time with daily 100% charges you will have avoided a lot of headache and you'll ultimately be much happier. If it doesn't last as long it will only mean buying a new car a year or 2 earlier. You may also find in 2-3 years from now that charging options have changed and you can now easily live with the car.

[Aussie]

I might be stating the obvious but have you still got low rolling resistance tyres and are you using recommended or a bit higher tyre pressure? A few %% there.

[dgpcolorado]

...I'm sorry, but I just can't understand some people who are defending Nissan and expecting us all to comply with Nissan nonsense. Somehow I am doing things wrong if I believed Nissan's statement and (somehow non-binding) promise that batteries should last 90%=5 years, 70% 10 years, and I believed them saying 62-132miles range? It didn't say anywhere that I need to drive like a grandma to get those 62 miles...

Huh? I don't recall any such claims. This was the battery disclosure for my 2012 LEAF:



Note that it estimates 80% in five years, depending on use conditions, and states the EPA range at 73 miles (the other numbers are MPGe and have nothing whatsoever to do with range). I doubt that Nissan said much different in the disclosure for the 2011 LEAF; if so, perhaps someone could post it.

Yes, the batteries didn't hold up as well as expected, especially in hot places. But making up numbers like "90%=5 years" isn't exactly fair either.

[caffeinekid]

...I'm sorry, but I just can't understand some people who are defending Nissan and expecting us all to comply with Nissan nonsense. Somehow I am doing things wrong if I believed Nissan's statement and (somehow non-binding) promise that batteries should last 90%=5 years, 70% 10 years, and I believed them saying 62-132miles range? It didn't say anywhere that I need to drive like a grandma to get those 62 miles...

Huh? I don't recall any such claims. This was the battery disclosure for my 2012 LEAF:



Note that it estimates 80% in five years, depending on use conditions, and states the EPA range at 73 miles (the other numbers are MPGe and have nothing whatsoever to do with range). I doubt that Nissan said much different in the disclosure for the 2011 LEAF; if so, perhaps someone could post it.

Yes, the batteries didn't hold up as well as expected, especially in hot places. But making up numbers like "90%=5 years" isn't exactly fair either.

It was 80% at 5 years and 70% at 10. This was based on a press release that I don't care to find again and was stated while claiming a "100 mile range. It was back when when we were placing our pre-orders in 2010 - long before the CYA corrections placed in the 2012 propaganda. The problem was that the 100 mile range magically dropped to 73 and then even that turned out to be a ruse. Instead of a car that we could expect to have 80 miles of range at year 5, so many drivers were seeing 90% in the first year, 80% after MAYBE two years of driving and 70% between years 3 and 4. Again, the data non grata appeared to be how long a driver could expect "like new" range. Losing ten percent of 73 miles, which proved to be a generous number for southern drivers in "extreme" environments where ambient temps might exceed a whopping 80F degrees on a regular basis, in the first year alone and twenty percent by year two leaves a lot of time driving with diminished capacity- a FAR call from what was promoted. That $35K EV with 100 mile range turned out to be a $35K mile EV with 73 mile range AT BEST for so many buyers. I can honestly state that I NEVER got 73 miles of range out of any of the 2011s that I have owned to date. And to clarify, I hypermile, avoid the freeways and all of the other techniques I learned driving a Prius.

No. Nissan gets no breaks. They screwed up in typical fashion on multiple occasions. Instead of being the leader that they could have been, they have proven themselves to be simply ho-hum "Nissan" that managed to capitalize on a LOT of American "taxpayer" funding.

[Feng]

I got a warranty replacement for my 2012 build LEAF at the start of the year. When I searched for its part number (295B0-3NA7A) it's a "2011-12 battery & components lithium battery".

I've always thought the lizard pack superseded the original pack. When Nissan announced pricing for a replacement pack a few years ago, 2010-12 LEAFs needed to pay a little extra for a mounting bracket to make the new pack fit in older models.

So why is the original model now available and more importantly, are the cells inside them the same as the original or are they the more heat tolerant "lizard pack" variety? Anyone care to speculate or know something more about it?