xanatos
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:34 pm
Delivery Date: 05 Jul 2012
Leaf Number: 023701

LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:44 pm

Hi guys, I need some help determining if my results are normal.

I've had my 2012 SL for a few months now (bought used), and notice that after full 100% charge, LeafSpy is showing me only 15.6kWh remaining.
I still have 11 out of 12 bars, so I was expecting something higher, like maybe at least 20kWh.
Does this look normal to you guys?

My other values if it helps:
SOC = 87.7%
AHr = 51.36
SOH = 78%
Hx = 59.90%
GIDs = 201

I've tried searching through the forum posts and wikis but keep seeing higher numbers than mine so I am really scratching my head.

LeafMuranoDriver
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 8:15 am
Delivery Date: 01 May 2015
Leaf Number: 323189
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:56 pm

The stats don't seem too out of line for a '12. Maybe the capacity bars were reset and your 11th bar may drop any day?

I don't think you could expect 20 kWh. I've been that low with my 15 when it was practically new.
2015 Leaf S w/ QC
Mfg: Jan. '15 // Pur: May '15
Best: 6/27/15 - 1,416 Miles - 292 GIDs - 63.11 Ahr - 22.6 kWh - 100% SOH - 97.2% Hx - 4 QC, 29 L2
Worst: 12/12/15 - 4,616 Miles - 259 GIDs - 55.02 Ahr - 20.1 kWh - 99% SOH - 82.8% Hx - 17 QC, 96 L2[/size]

cwerdna
Posts: 10595
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:58 pm

I don't pay any attention to the kWh figures since Nissan has never documented how many watt-hours a gid is actually worth. The assumption is 80 or a little less and who knows what the error is/when it's accurate or not accurate.

Is 201 gids on a full charge? If not, how many at a full charge? New '11 and '12 Leafs supposedly have ~281 gids on a new battery on a full charge.

My '13 Leaf that still has all 12 bars reaches high 240s to low 250s tops (in gids) on full charge. I expect to lose my 1st capacity bar by the time this summer's over.

Please also see replies at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p464059 and beyond.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14819
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:04 pm

ahr 51, yeah looking pretty normal. with better top end balancing, you might push it up to 16ish
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 10,081 mi, 95.03% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

xanatos
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:34 pm
Delivery Date: 05 Jul 2012
Leaf Number: 023701

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:48 pm

Thanks so much for the replies guys, good to know it's nothing out of ordinary.
And to answer the question, yes the GID value I posted was at 100% full charge.

jkline
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 10:46 am
Delivery Date: 01 May 2016
Location: Eastern, WA

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:37 pm

Looks normal to me. At 100% charge, my 2012 with 80 soh gives me only 16.4kwh. According to leafspy that is actually a 90%charge, which is the best I can ever get.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:21 am

xanatos wrote:My other values if it helps:
SOC = 87.7%
AHr = 51.36
SOH = 78%
Hx = 59.90%
GIDs = 201
xanatos wrote:And to answer the question, yes the GID value I posted was at 100% full charge.
My 2011 SL has very similar numbers to your LEAF: Ah reading is currently at 51.09 (78% SOH) and it just dropped the second capacity bar (down to 10), which I predict you will do any day now. That's the bad news.

Now for the good news: As DaveInOlyWA said, it appears that your battery is not balanced, hence the low SOC at full charge that you reported (bolded). That often occurs if you do not charge to full frequently, such as when you use the 80% mode on the charge timer. Why is this good news? Because there are things you can do to achieve higher SOC at full charge, just like when your LEAF was new. Using some tricks I learned along the way, I was able to charge to 95.1 SOC on Monday in order to drive to a Fourth of July picnic that was 75 miles from home.

More good news is that part (maybe a big part) of the degradation reported by your car is likely a form of pessimism on the part of the instrumentation that you can work around under some conditions.. While this is a hotly-debated topic around here, I will confirm that much more of our LEAF's battery's capacity is still there than is reported by the vehicle. The difficulty is in being able to access this capacity in order to make longer trips. Here's an anecdote from my Fourth of July trip to help illustrate what I mean:

I drove the 75 miles to the destination and arrived with 19.1 SOC remaining in the battery. If I compare this result with a trip I made under the same weather (overcast and 70F) and driving conditions (hypermiling) to this same destination four years ago when the car was new, I believe that back then I arrived with an SOC of only about 17%! How can that be if the battery has degraded over 20% since then?

Here's my take:
- Capacity, as reported by the instrumentation in the LEAF, is DISCHARGE capacity at a particular discharge rate. This is the capacity which matters when trying to drive a particular distance.
- The discharge rate at which the LEAF estimates remaining capacity is likely rather high: probably a C rate (1-hour discharge).
- The PRIMARY degradation that has occurred in our batteries over time is an increase in the RESISTANCE of the battery. I will guess that the resistance of our batteries has approximately doubled from about 60 mOhms to around 120 mOhms, maybe much more.
- The resistance of some cells increases faster than other cells. This makes it harder for the battery management system (BMS) to keep the cells balanced.
- The LEAF's instrumentation ultimately bases ALL of its estimates of SOC on battery voltages.
- The LEAF's instrumentation seldom has the opportunity to measure the battery voltage under no-load (zero current) conditions. Instead, it mostly measures the battery while it is either discharging OR charging.

The practical result of all of the above is this:
- Our batteries are ABSOLUTELY degraded. They are NOT the same as they were when they were new.
- In normal use, our batteries will typically charge to a lower SOC than they did when they were new and the SOC will drop rapidly when we start driving the car.
- LBW and VLBW occur at significantly higher SOCs than when the vehicle was new. It has been reported that LBW occurred at 17.8% SOC when our cars were new, but I now see it at about 26% SOC. This is quite a bit more of an increase than one would expect from losing 22% of the battery's capacity.
- Under "normal" charging and driving conditions (60 MPH) we likely can only go about 78% as far from full to LBW as we could when the car was new. (Tony Williams has done extensive testing that bears this out.)
- BUT, if we can manage to get the battery well-balanced and charged to a very high SOC AND we drive slowly AND we use LeafSpy to know what the actual SOC is, we can still drive almost as far as we could when the car was new under similar circumstances. But this is only true IN WARM WEATHER.
- Unfortunately, in cold weather (below about 30F), the effects of the degradation are felt much more strongly, even if you try to use all the tricks I have mentioned. This is due to a further multiple increase in the resistance of the battery AND the need to run the heater and/or the defroster in those conditions.

Note that none of what I have discussed above will affect what the instruments in the dash display. You won't see capacity bars return or anything like that.

Now for some notes on charging to a high SOC and achieving a good balance:
- You need to charge to full multiple times over the course of a few days if you want to be able to fully charge the battery.
- If you want to charge to a high SOC in a MY2011/2012 LEAF, you need to charge more slowly at the end of the charge (last hour or more). Here are some ways to do this: A) turn on the air conditioner while charging, B) charge at L1 rates (120V) or C) do both. (If you have a 2014(?) or later EVSEUpgrade, you may have the option to control the charging rate using that, as well.)

The bottom line seems to be that increases in resistance of the LEAF's battery are the most significant form of degradation for many of our vehicles, which means that more of the capacity remains than the instruments let on. The trick is in accessing that capacity when you really need it.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14819
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:58 am

+1 on reg's comments. illustrates another improvement that got swept under the rug on the 2013+ MY's in the charge profile where the LEAF remains in active charge mode at the end of the charge cycle to help with the balancing.

my only peeve is them not changing the blinking pattern or providing some other clue that the main charging process had been completed. this would be a huge benefit when queues are present at public charging stations
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 10,081 mi, 95.03% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Leafabout
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:33 pm
Leaf Number: 413354
Location: North Carolina

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:54 am

Do I understand that right? I should charge to 100% several times a week instead of just one time a week? I have a loss of one capacity bar.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6419
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: LeafSpy reporting only 15.6 kWh after charging 100%?

Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:22 pm

Leafabout wrote:Do I understand that right? I should charge to 100% several times a week instead of just one time a week? I have a loss of one capacity bar.
No. Only do that if you need (or want) to get the cells in your battery fully balanced in order to be able to charge it to maximum available capacity. Otherwise, it is best to avoid charging to full, as you have been doing.

And I think charging to full once per week likely does a fairly good job of keeping your cells balanced.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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