pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

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PedalLogic

Active member
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
40
Hi,

We seek current Leaf owners to provide feedback regarding their driving experience and results with a new range-extending technology. This is an aftermarket and OEM solution that has been tested over 3-4 years by vehicle manufacturers and fleet operators in closed course and open road testing.

The feedback we are looking for is your real-world experience and results with a solution specifically designed for the Leaf. There's no cost to participate. We prefer candidates who have owned a Leaf for at least six months and consider themselves familiar with the performance and driving characteristics of the vehicle.

Here's an overview of the program: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6rEgzXybfRZWk9sdkcyYTZ4NU0/view?usp=sharing

Please post a note here if you have questions/ interest or send a PM to participate.

Best,
Marc
Pedal Logic
 
What is the general overview of the range extender? Is it additional batteries on board? Is a trailer based generator or battery setup?

Is it a considered a permanent modification to the car, or will the experimental equipment be returned and the car remain altered in some way?

I'm interested, I drive around an urban environment daily visiting customer site that are occasionally out of range.

Note: I found the website. Disregard, didn't realize it was a gimmick.
 
Pedal Logic... you're going to add pedals, Fred Flintstone style?

I have owned two Nissan LEAFs, with about 36,000 miles driven total.

I don't usually respond cryptic guessing games on technology, but what the hell. I'll participate. If you're looking to get a non-emotional response, I'm happy to provide it.
 
Well, their website talks about a "smart accelerator" (my term, not theirs, although they will probably steal that now!!), so my guess is that is what they are talking about for the Leaf also. One that eliminates all the little fluctuations in pressure you apply as drive.

I suspect the mileage extension would be pretty darn small.
 
Newporttom said:
Well, their website talks about a "smart accelerator" (my term, not theirs, although they will probably steal that now!!), so my guess is that is what they are talking about for the Leaf also. One that eliminates all the little fluctuations in pressure you apply as drive.

I suspect the mileage extension would be pretty darn small.

Ya, I can't even bring myself to read the websites on something that appears to be clouded in no-facts.
 
I thought it was an interesting concept. I would test it but I am in Florida and I'm sure they are looking for California testers. But the only price points I saw were on buses and it was REALLY high in my opinion.

I ran a couple numbers quickly. If this thing allowed a gas vehicle to get an extra one MPG and you drove 15,000 in a year it would save you $24 in a year. So the price point (to me) would have to be $50 or so to make it cost effective.

And I thought getting an extra 1 MPG was optimistic. Love to hear what it achieves.
 
Hi Everyone,

Here's more info: We've developed a patented technology called "Pedal Signal Correction." The operating principal is very straightforward:

During normal operation, a vehicle is not only moving forward, but also moves up and down several times a second. Because it happens so quickly, this motion causes the driver's foot to unintentionally change pressure on the accelerator pedal, which in turn changes the requested power from the motor. Even at slow speeds, these cycles in power typically happen several times a second, which necessitates an automated solution.

In terms of performance, we commonly see results in the 7-8% range. In some testing, we have seen >10% results, although a change in vehicle behavior becomes noticeable. In physical terms, the aftermarket version is about the size of an iPhone charger and designed for plug-and-play installation in about 10 minutes.

Pricing that one of the commenters saw on our website is for transit buses, which typically use $30000+ in fuel annually. We understand that pricing is not relevant to passenger cars. One of the questions for the testers will be to recommend retail pricing after having an opportunity to use the technology.

Please keep the questions coming. I already have a few PMs for testing--I'll respond to everyone in that group today. Thanks!

Marc
 
I think that using "Eco" mode on the leaf accomplishes some of what this is intending to do.

The secondary note, is that this simply is a software thing that could be done by Nissan, Tesla, etc, to simply nullify any small change in the acceleration pedal location unless held for more than a second, since there is no actual hardware linkage to a throttle body, it's simply a potentiometer.

As a third note, if you're using cruise control, there's no bouncing of your foot on the pedal unless you're attempting to exceed the speed that you have the cruise control set to.
 
Hi Durandal,

I think that using "Eco" mode on the leaf accomplishes some of what this is intending to do.
Actually that's not the case. Our technology improves the miles per kWh regardless of whether the vehicle is in Power or ECO mode. We know this through extensive independent closed course and open-road testing.

The secondary note, is that this simply is a software thing that could be done by Nissan, Tesla, etc, to simply nullify any small change in the acceleration pedal location unless held for more than a second, since there is no actual hardware linkage to a throttle body, it's simply a potentiometer.
Not the case either. The approach you're describing is a lag filter, which is very well known in the industry. The trouble with that approach is that it compromises vehicle performance significantly and, as a result, is disfavored by manufacturers.

As a third note, if you're using cruise control, there's no bouncing of your foot on the pedal unless you're attempting to exceed the speed that you have the cruise control set to.
It depends on how you drive. If you take your foot of the pedal when using cruise control you will avoid having your foot dance on the pedal and our technology wouldn't provide any benefit. However, that's not the safest way to drive at highway speeds. And while we perform well on highway driving, we perform even better in city driving, which is where vehicles typically need the most improvement.


In summary, I'd have wasted the last few years of my career and a lot of money if all we did was re-invent the wheel. ;) Instead, we have a unique technology that has already been tested on defense platforms, municipal transit buses, and a very wide array of electric and combustion light vehicles. Our goal is to collect additional candid feedback from Leaf owners as a final checksum before releasing a Leaf version to the market.

Best,
Marc
 
This reads as fairly fishy to me. I'm sorry, but my foot doesn't "bounce" or "dance" on the accelerator pedal as I drive. It might move slightly if I hit a bump, but the pedal has enough stiffness to generally avoid that. Also, I know of no one who leaves their foot on the pedal when using cruise control. We don't tuck our feet under our butts, but we do take them off the pedal on the highway. Given that, if the pedal were being moved enough to matter, then using cruise control with foot off the pedal should produce a large improvement in economy. Instead, it produces what you'd expect from simply eliminating small but frequent speed changes on level road. The throttle mapping of Eco mode is all that is needed to produce the effect described. The technology in question might help with some ICE vehicles with light pedals, but the Leaf isn't one of them.

I say this as someone who "invented" a different but somewhat similar device, back in the Eighties. It was a two-mode A/C deactivator that, when engaged, turned the A/C on either if the brake light was lit, or if the throttle opening was small, depending on the mode selected. I wanted an adjustable timer mode as well, but back then I couldn't find one off the shelf that was cheap enough.
 
Hi Leftie,

The physics of the situation are a little bit surprising to most people. Here's what I mean:

Even a vehicle traveling at a relatively slow speed of 25 MPH is passing over 36 feet of roadway per second. Every change in elevation of the roadway surface is felt by the vehicle. Obviously the suspension absorbs some of that up/down motion but not all of it. The remainder causes the driver's foot and the accelerator pedal to move constantly vis-a-vis one another.

If a reader of this post wants to test that statement, find the flattest, smoothest road segment you know and try to keep your foot still while driving. You'll discover that your foot changes pressure continuously on the pedal. To be clear, I'm not talking about potholes (although we address those too). I'm talking about the regular and constant motion that occurs on all roads and conditions.

Finally, while I appreciate your cynicism, our technology has been tested over hundreds of thousands of miles on a lot of different platforms--a lot of that testing was on closed courses operated by vehicle manufacturers. I know for a fact that our technology works very well on electrics.

Best,
Marc
 
I'm skeptical, but if you haven't already, you might pitch it to Wayne Gerdes of cleanmpg.com. I think he might be interested in testing and seeing what improvement he gets, if any.
 
I saw this among the elderly who have power chairs especially those with ailments like Parkinson's. My mother had to give up on taking her chair out to the corner store because with her Parkinson's and such her hand no matter how steady she tried to be always fluctuated on the controller reducing the range of her chair by up to 75% leaving her stranded with a dead battery.

One might expect to see a large deviance though on a throttle pedal when comparing the results of those who have their leg and/or foot braced against the center hump/console to prevent reactions from deviations in road surfaces and those that don't make that a practice.
 
PedalLogic said:
And while we perform well on highway driving, we perform even better in city driving, which is where vehicles typically need the most improvement.

This is true for traditional ICE cars, but exactly backwards for most EV driving. At least for me. EVs are already more efficient in city driving than highway driving. My 24kWh battery provides plenty of range in the city already, but falls short on the highway. The culprit is wind resistance. This will be even more apparent in the upcoming crop of ~60kWh BEVs (Bolt, Model III, Leaf 2.0). These cars will make city range completely irrelevant. Who cares to drive 300 miles non-stop on city street?

All that said, I'd still be willing to give it a shot as a beta tester. My leaf is fine for around-town driving. I have stopped taking it on country roads (speeds 45-55mph) to the Finger Lakes region due to battery degradation and lack of backup infrastructure. It would be interesting to see how well it performs on a trip from Syracuse to Skaneateles, for example. Those roads can be bumpy, and the speeds are low enough that wind resistance won't absolutely kill my range.
 
cwerdna said:
I'm skeptical, but if you haven't already, you might pitch it to Wayne Gerdes of cleanmpg.com. I think he might be interested in testing and seeing what improvement he gets, if any.

Will do. Thanks for the tip.
 
i have PM'ed them. I will test and see what the results are. I will not pass judgement on whether it will work or not until I've tried it. I think that approach is best for all. If you don't think it will work and have not bothered to test it, then your comments are just opinions without facts. I've made many mistakes and failures in my life and have discovered many truths on the way. so far, it has been worth it.
 
I believe there's some truth to this (but doubt the price tag is worth it). I've noticed that I can improve range in ECO mode (2012SL) when I wedge my foot against the sidewall and the pedal. It keeps the speed consistent and the display shows my realtime usage constant instead of jumping around. I've been able to add several miles on the freeway doing this simple technique.
 
Now if it knows what is the optimum "go" pedal level that would be the most efficient to get up to a given speed, that would be cool. Punch in what speed you want to go, and it slowly glides up to that speed at the most efficient rate, and then if you need faster, you can always push the pedal down. Something like that would be cool.
 
Durandal said:
Now if it knows what is the optimum "go" pedal level that would be the most efficient to get up to a given speed, that would be cool. Punch in what speed you want to go, and it slowly glides up to that speed at the most efficient rate, and then if you need faster, you can always push the pedal down. Something like that would be cool.
I rarely use cruise control because I despise how FLOORS the gas when going up a moderate hill, I also don't like how it races to the top of a hill while I don't quite have good visibility yet of whats over the top. To me the ideal cruise control would be programmable. You'd set your cruising speed(say 70) and minimum speed(say 60). If driving on a flat road it would try and maintain 70, when starting the climb of a moderate hill it might start losing speed but once it dropped to 60 it would do all it could to maintain 60(like a normal cruise control would do if set to 60). Another thing I dislike about cruise is when going down a hill. All it does is back off the gas, even if only doing that might get your speed well over what you have cruise set for. Now I'm not sure how the Leaf works in this case as I haven't ran into a large downhill while using cruise but I'd hope it would allow maximum regen trying to maintain speed. My Prius does not do this, even though it has a regen(B mode). In fact if you first engage B mode the car won't allow cruise to be set :x On my Prius going down a large hill with cruise set to 60 you could be going 80 by the bottom, it just will NOT engage B mode and I believe it should.
I recently drove in someones Ford Escape and I was kind of impressed with their cruise. Now while their Escape didn't have a battery or a B type mode, with their cruise set and going down a moderate hill the cruise actually kind of downshifted to try and maintain speed, the engine revved up quite a bit and it did actually help to slow the car down, I wonder how many other ICE cars have such a cruise control??

Lastly, today driving my Leaf on a flat relatively new freeway I had my display set to the kwh/miles screen and was monitoring the instantaneous bar. I was really surprised how much it jumped on each crack in the road or expansion joints on every bridge, no matter how hard I tried to hold my foot still I could see the bar jump up and down, even though I couldn't tell any difference in speed. Now the Leaf I had today didn't have cruise but it would have been interesting to see how a Leaf set to cruise on the exact same stretch of road would react to such bumps.....although the skeptic in me wonders just how much difference those little spikes in power would affect overall range, I just don't know :idea:
 
I am also interested, if it is easy enough to install, and if it won't cause a divorce (in case wife gets stranded somewhere if it fails).
 
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