OakLeaf
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:00 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2012
Location: Telford, PA

Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:48 pm

Hi Marc,

Received the test unit yesterday and just wanted to mention a few things about the experience so far:

Watched the videos, and felt they were very helpful, clear and well paced, but would suggest adding some additional detail.

First, it's difficult to see the LED colors in the video, so a closer shot of that during the walk-through would be an improvement.

Secondly, a closer shot detailing the connector release (where and how to press) would have been helpful in knowing what exactly to do once under the dash during the install.

As far as installation went, it didn't take too long (about a half hour) on our 2012 SL, but I did have to resort to removing the 10mm bolts and proceeding down that route. Although I was able to get both hands up, into and around the plug area, there was not enough slack in the harness to work with given the extra distance created by the new in-line module. There was also another cable bundle present over the area where the new assembly intrudes, creating an interference. Removing the tape on the plug wire harness (as suggested in the video) was helpful, but some force was still required to get the accelerator assembly bolted back into place. Not sure I really like to see that sort of stress on the wires & connector pins.

Went through and did the one time throttle limit calibration, plus setting the operating mode, no drama there and all went as expected.

Maybe it's not a big deal to most folks as it's probably not something you'll do every day, but I'm not liking the exclusive use of the LEDs for operational feedback. Once installed, the only way to see the LED is to crawl into the foot well and look up under the dash, something I'd rather not do any more of today. :) Not trying to be critical, just giving some honest impressions and feedback. Instead of, or in addition to the LED, perhaps add an audio signal of some sort?

Decided to "go for it" and tried the Mode 5 in "D" first. On the positive side, the small test run I did showed 6.8mile/kWh on the display where I would normally have expected around 4.5 to 5. However, there really is a lot of delay between pressing the pedal and the vehicle response, so I can't say I'm a fan of this mode so far.

Lots more to try, but I wanted to let you and the others here know of my experience so far.

Looking forward to seeing how this all works out!
2012 Leaf SL - 72K miles since 11/2012 - No P3227 Update - 7 Bars / 38.80AHr / SOH 59.15% / Hx 51.26%

PedalLogic
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:52 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 007889

Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:34 pm

Hi OakLeaf,
You wrote an excellent and detailed email. Thank you. Answers (or at least responses) to the points you raise follow the quoted sections:
OakLeaf wrote:Hi Marc,

Received the test unit yesterday and just wanted to mention a few things about the experience so far:

Watched the videos, and felt they were very helpful, clear and well paced, but would suggest adding some additional detail.

First, it's difficult to see the LED colors in the video, so a closer shot of that during the walk-through would be an improvement.
Good idea. Will do.
Secondly, a closer shot detailing the connector release (where and how to press) would have been helpful in knowing what exactly to do once under the dash during the install.
Also good idea. Will add this as well.
As far as installation went, it didn't take too long (about a half hour) on our 2012 SL, but I did have to resort to removing the 10mm bolts and proceeding down that route. Although I was able to get both hands up, into and around the plug area, there was not enough slack in the harness to work with given the extra distance created by the new in-line module. There was also another cable bundle present over the area where the new assembly intrudes, creating an interference. Removing the tape on the plug wire harness (as suggested in the video) was helpful, but some force was still required to get the accelerator assembly bolted back into place. Not sure I really like to see that sort of stress on the wires & connector pins.
Glad you were successful. Right now, it's been about 50/50 for whether installers remove the pedal in the Leaf. I expect that number may change (unfavorably) as the pool of installers grows. Even if it doesn't, the Leaf is going to remain one of the most challenging installs for exactly the reasons you mention.

By the way, for those who are curious about the design process, we probably went through 60-70 prototypes before we had a housing design that we thought would do the job reliably. Even then, the housing itself has only about 1MM (0.04" !!!) of clearance on three sides--a tight fit, indeed.
Went through and did the one time throttle limit calibration, plus setting the operating mode, no drama there and all went as expected.
Excellent.
Maybe it's not a big deal to most folks as it's probably not something you'll do every day, but I'm not liking the exclusive use of the LEDs for operational feedback. Once installed, the only way to see the LED is to crawl into the foot well and look up under the dash, something I'd rather not do any more of today. :) Not trying to be critical, just giving some honest impressions and feedback. Instead of, or in addition to the LED, perhaps add an audio signal of some sort?
I think we'll get a fair number of complaints on this issue, but we're a bit hamstrung by an external constraint: the spare power available at the pedal is extremely low. To stay within that budget, we were limited to an LED.
Decided to "go for it" and tried the Mode 5 in "D" first. On the positive side, the small test run I did showed 6.8mile/kWh on the display where I would normally have expected around 4.5 to 5. However, there really is a lot of delay between pressing the pedal and the vehicle response, so I can't say I'm a fan of this mode so far.
If we've gone too far, that's good feedback to have too. These modes are for testing and not production; in fact, it's very likely that input from this group will help decide (and further tailor) the final production modes. I'd appreciate hearing what you think of mode 4 after you've had a chance to drive it.
Lots more to try, but I wanted to let you and the others here know of my experience so far. Looking forward to seeing how this all works out!
Me too! Thanks for helping us make it a better product.

Best,
Marc

RockyNv
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:35 am
Delivery Date: 17 Sep 2016

Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:53 pm

What are the chances of a cruise control option for those who have the Leaf S?

PedalLogic
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:52 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 007889

Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:37 am

RockyNv wrote:What are the chances of a cruise control option for those who have the Leaf S?
Zero, unfortunately. We're located on the pedal and have access to the pedal signal. We also have access to vehicle movement via our built-in accelerometer.

In comparison, a cruise control system is usually an extra layer of software implemented within the ECU. From there it has access to the braking and sensor data that it needs to do its job effectively.

OakLeaf
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:00 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2012
Location: Telford, PA

Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:26 am

Hi Marc,

Glad you found the comments helpful!

Some additional thoughts:
PedalLogic wrote:
OakLeaf wrote:Maybe it's not a big deal to most folks as it's probably not something you'll do every day, but I'm not liking the exclusive use of the LEDs for operational feedback. Once installed, the only way to see the LED is to crawl into the foot well and look up under the dash, something I'd rather not do any more of today. :) Not trying to be critical, just giving some honest impressions and feedback. Instead of, or in addition to the LED, perhaps add an audio signal of some sort?
I think we'll get a fair number of complaints on this issue, but we're a bit hamstrung by an external constraint: the spare power available at the pedal is extremely low. To stay within that budget, we were limited to an LED.
That's very understandable, and there are probably other limiting factors too (package size/PCB layout restrictions), but I'd like to point out that some of the really small audio alerts have current consumption in ranges similar to those used for typical LED drives (1-10mA). Don't want to seem too stubborn on this point, but I do think it's a major issue and some means to address it should be considered.
PedalLogic wrote:
OakLeaf wrote:Decided to "go for it" and tried the Mode 5 in "D" first. On the positive side, the small test run I did showed 6.8mile/kWh on the display where I would normally have expected around 4.5 to 5. However, there really is a lot of delay between pressing the pedal and the vehicle response, so I can't say I'm a fan of this mode so far.
If we've gone too far, that's good feedback to have too. These modes are for testing and not production; in fact, it's very likely that input from this group will help decide (and further tailor) the final production modes. I'd appreciate hearing what you think of mode 4 after you've had a chance to drive it.
Drove the usual commute in on Mode 5 (with "D") this morning and even after this much longer ride (~20 miles), I'm still really not liking the pedal delay it has. Granted it's a sample size of 1, but I'm not seeing much of an improvement in efficiency vs. what I'd see in the normal "Eco" mode. Again, it's a grand sample of "1", but interestingly, the "Tree" display showed more branches than is usual for this trip. I'm thinking that one issue is that in "D", there is much less Regen, and with all the stop-and-go driving on my route, this may not be an ideal mode for me overall.

Will certainly move on to the other Modes and let you know how it goes!
2012 Leaf SL - 72K miles since 11/2012 - No P3227 Update - 7 Bars / 38.80AHr / SOH 59.15% / Hx 51.26%

RockyNv
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:35 am
Delivery Date: 17 Sep 2016

Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:05 am

PedalLogic wrote:
RockyNv wrote:What are the chances of a cruise control option for those who have the Leaf S?
Zero, unfortunately. We're located on the pedal and have access to the pedal signal. We also have access to vehicle movement via our built-in accelerometer.

In comparison, a cruise control system is usually an extra layer of software implemented within the ECU. From there it has access to the braking and sensor data that it needs to do its job effectively.
I asked as there is a company in England that is installing an after market system for Leafs that did not come with cruise control as a factory option that appears to connect to both the pedal and OBDII socket. Would prefer to get it from someone in the family so to speak rather than a stranger overseas.

http://www.conrad-anderson.co.uk/produc ... se-control

PedalLogic
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:52 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 007889

Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm

RockyNv wrote:I asked as there is a company in England that is installing an after market system for Leafs that did not come with cruise control as a factory option that appears to connect to both the pedal and OBDII socket. Would prefer to get it from someone in the family so to speak rather than a stranger overseas.

http://www.conrad-anderson.co.uk/produc ... se-control
Good to know. I appreciate the thought about buying local too.

I'm trying to do something similar with our suppliers. So far, it has meant a little more leg work in sourcing and sourcing negotiations. From my perspective, it's been a good investment though: it helps the local economy and gives us more control over quality.

PedalLogic
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:52 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 007889

Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:01 pm

OakLeaf wrote:That's very understandable, and there are probably other limiting factors too (package size/PCB layout restrictions), but I'd like to point out that some of the really small audio alerts have current consumption in ranges similar to those used for typical LED drives (1-10mA). Don't want to seem too stubborn on this point, but I do think it's a major issue and some means to address it should be considered.
Message received. I'll look into it.
OakLeaf wrote:Drove the usual commute in on Mode 5 (with "D") this morning and even after this much longer ride (~20 miles), I'm still really not liking the pedal delay it has. Granted it's a sample size of 1, but I'm not seeing much of an improvement in efficiency vs. what I'd see in the normal "Eco" mode. Again, it's a grand sample of "1", but interestingly, the "Tree" display showed more branches than is usual for this trip. I'm thinking that one issue is that in "D", there is much less Regen, and with all the stop-and-go driving on my route, this may not be an ideal mode for me overall. Will certainly move on to the other Modes and let you know how it goes!
I think we may have made Mode 5 too aggressive. I'm thinking it makes sense already to ship another unit to you with a revised Mode 5. Please switch to Mode 3 first though and let me know how it goes.

PedalLogic
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:52 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 007889

video - removing and re-installing the Leaf accelerator pedal

Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:07 pm

Hi Everyone,

A couple of testers requested more detail about removing the connector on the pedal and the pedal itself. Here is a 2-min video on those topics:

https://youtu.be/HBEBKnaKt1s

If anyone needs more detail about any aspect of the install, let me know and I'll respond quickly.

Best,
Marc

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DuncanCunningham
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Re: pre-release testers wanted - range-extending technology for Leaf

Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:16 pm

I really wanted to get this device installed so I loosed the bolts and it was much easier to unplug and connect. You are right about the wiring harness being tight on the way back in. It took me a few times to program the mode as I wasn't able to hold the pedal all the way to the metal for 60secs the first couple of times. I've elected to start with mode 4 as I like having Regen.

Took it down the street and the responsiveness is much like a automatic ICE car but silent when getting going off the line. I'll get used to the delay after being spoiled by the Leaf thus far. I did notice a very sturdy application of power on the pie chart power display. Let's see how it goes.
Statler: Wake up you old fool. You slept through the show.
Waldorf: Who's a fool? You watched it.

2015 Leaf S (leased until May 2018, Bought out in Jan 2017)
2012 Leaf SL (purchased May 2015)

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