driveleaf
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:31 am

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:27 am

Day 6. No change in location or charge.

At this rate I wonder if they will make their self imposed delivery deadline of 1/20/11. Gardena, CA is a long way from here.

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driveleaf
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:31 am

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:56 am

Day 7. The car has now sat long enough it has attempted to self charge the 12v battery at some point during the last week. And no real hit on the battery pack.

Spoke with delivery company today. They assured me it was being loaded on a transporter today to head east. Good luck little leaf. The weather isn't so good this week.
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DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14492
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:12 pm

And it should be minimal. Self discharge on lithium is like 5% per month so it can sit but discharge is not linear so u will have issues when sitting more than about 2 months or so
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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DaveEV
Posts: 6245
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:49 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:And it should be minimal. Self discharge on lithium is like 5% per month so it can sit but discharge is not linear so u will have issues when sitting more than about 2 months or so
Batteries self discharge fastest when they are full, and slower when they are less full - so I highly doubt any issues will arise after 2 months as long as you started with at least 20% charge.

rainnw
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:26 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Seattle

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:16 pm

Storing charged Li Ion batteries varies on chemistry, but they typically have a self discharge rate of 8%-15%, depending on temperature. Discharge usually tapers off in these batteries, as cobalts are good to store around 40-60%... as the loss is 2-4%.

80% sounds like a lithium ion polymer storage charge, no idea what the recommendations are specifically for the leaf's chemistry.

Honestly, while discharge rate is interesting, I think it is mostly irrelevant unless the car is going to be sitting for extremely long periods of time. If you are talking about six months, id be concerned, but even a month is probably going to not be much of a bother.

You are going to charge it anyway...its not like its an emergency locator beacon where you need a good chunk of the power available on a moment's notice 5 years from now!

The key to good battery life is frequent usage/exercising of the battery.

Anyone in the armed forces should probably take special care -- i had a friend park a car for years. It was almost comical that he had a 4 year old car with only a few miles on it and brand new! It was a hybrid too .. wonder how the battery pack did (NiMH are especially nasty when left to waste)
Ordered 11/24/2010 (November)
Delivered: 5/28/2011
Red SL-e, ECO package, cargo, splashguards
Commute: 75 miles round trip (60 miles highway, 15 side roads)
miles: 45,000 miles
Charge daily to 100%, lost 1st bar at 43k

http://www.chargesticker.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:57 pm

http://www.mpoweruk.com/performance.htm
Lead Acid 4% to 6% per month
Nickel Cadmium 15% to 20% per month
Nickel Metal Hydride 30% per month
Lithium 2% to 3% per month
The recommended lithium storage charge is ~40% SOC.

The Leaf's cells are high quality, made by a major company, and have very low internal resistance. These factors suggest a self discharge rate on the lower side of the 2-3% range.

palmermd
Posts: 2615
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:19 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 1100011011
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:34 pm

Self discharge is ZERO after the first few cycles are performed.
There is no shuttle-based self-discharge reaction in the Lithium Ion cell like that found in the NiMH and NiCd. As the cell ages, the self-discharge eventually becomes zero. Initially the cell suffers from irreversible capacity loss. This is a reaction of the electrolyte with the the active components if the cell. It occurs more rapidly with increasing temperature and cell voltage. For this reason, cells should be stored at 24C or less and between 30-50% state of charge. The lower limit is chosen because they are often stored in packs witch circuitry that demands a small drain on the battery. When one considers the circuitry needed for li-Ion, it becomes the most important source of self-discharge.
http://www.gpbatteries.com/html/pdf/Li-ion_handbook.pdf
Michael

Leaf from 31 March 2011 - Traded 18 April 2018 for Tesla Model 3 Unicorn
Driving electric since 1996


Leaf Bar Loss

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:20 pm

palmermd wrote:Self discharge is ZERO after the first few cycles are performed.
For higher quality LiCo/LiPo, yes. Low quality LiPo, not so much. ;)

palmermd
Posts: 2615
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:19 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 1100011011
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:00 pm

AndyH wrote:
palmermd wrote:Self discharge is ZERO after the first few cycles are performed.
For higher quality LiCo/LiPo, yes. Low quality LiPo, not so much. ;)
Are you suggesting the LEAF pack is high or low quality? You listed 2-3% self discharge.
Michael

Leaf from 31 March 2011 - Traded 18 April 2018 for Tesla Model 3 Unicorn
Driving electric since 1996


Leaf Bar Loss

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: What does a sitting leaf do?

Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:14 pm

palmermd wrote:
AndyH wrote:
palmermd wrote:Self discharge is ZERO after the first few cycles are performed.
For higher quality LiCo/LiPo, yes. Low quality LiPo, not so much. ;)
Are you suggesting the LEAF pack is high or low quality? You listed 2-3% self discharge.
I said a few posts back that I consider the Leaf cells to be high quality - no worries there. But the Leaf pack is not lithium polymer/lithium cobalt.

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