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Nubo
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:37 am

This is almost certain to become an issue when the number of EVs grows to a substantial percentage of the market.

We tend to regard public outlets as fair game when it comes to something like charging iphones or running a laptop. In these cases, the amount of power is trivial and not worth the hassle of making arrangements for payment. People may be tempted to transfer that reasoning to their cars but it doesn't transfer readily.

Charging an EV is a very different matter. We're talking definite and tangible cost. To take $.50 or $1 of power without permission is clearly not justified. The situation in AK with block heaters may have evolved to become a social norm because it's in everyone's best interest. Not so sure that will translate to charging EVs.

I'd consider it equivalent to asking for gasoline. If you were running out far from a filling station, would you just walk into the garage of a home or business and help yourself? Probably not. You'd look for a way to ask permission, offer payment, etc... Only as a last resort would you simply take, and even then you'd leave behind a payment if possible, your name and number, etc... Why would it be any different with an EV?

I definitely think you'll be reading of problems in this area during the awkward period before a robust charging infrastructure is in place.

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Jimmydreams
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:34 pm

I would argue that if you were legitimately patronizing the location, and the parking area was specifically FOR said location AND the outlet was not locked or marked, then you are merely using an extension (no pun intended) of what the business was already providing for you. But ALL the above have to be met.

If you're paying for parking in a garage, then what you pay provides you the lights, elevators, etc. I would argue that the outlet (again, NOT locked and NOT marked) is just like the elevator: I paid for it, I can use it. If a business provides parking for it's customers and there is an outlet there, who is to say it's not provided for the use of the patrons of the business that already provided the parking?

If you park in a Denny's parking lot because they have outlets on their lightposts, but you walk across the street to eat at Pizza Hut, BZZZZZT, I say no charging because you're effectively stealing the parking from Denny's.

If you have a receipt from the business and you are a customer, AND the outlet was not locked or marked, I don't think you're doing anything wrong. BUT, having said that, as EV's catch on, you'll see a lot of those outlets getting locked or marked.....nothing is free and there are a lot of freeloaders out there who will ruin it for the rest of us. :evil:
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:39 pm

Jimmydreams wrote:I would argue that if you were legitimately patronizing the location, and the parking area was specifically FOR said location AND the outlet was not locked or marked, then you are merely using an extension (no pun intended) of what the business was already providing for you. But ALL the above have to be met.

If you're paying for parking in a garage, then what you pay provides you the lights, elevators, etc. I would argue that the outlet (again, NOT locked and NOT marked) is just like the elevator: I paid for it, I can use it. If a business provides parking for it's customers and there is an outlet there, who is to say it's not provided for the use of the patrons of the business that already provided the parking?
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charlie1300
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:46 pm

Unless the outlet has a sign that says "free EV charging here!", it is rude and presumptuous just to plug in without asking permission. It's not an issue of how many $$ worth of KW you are taking. It's that you are just taking it! Parking garages may have electrical outlets scattered around, but isn't that for their maintenance purposes?

And after you just take it, and the garage manager gets pissed, what's going to be his reaction to the next EV owner who politely asks permission?
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Jimmydreams
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:02 pm

charlie1300 wrote:Unless the outlet has a sign that says "free EV charging here!", it is rude and presumptuous just to plug in without asking permission. It's not an issue of how many $$ worth of KW you are taking. It's that you are just taking it! Parking garages may have electrical outlets scattered around, but isn't that for their maintenance purposes?
So if a parking garage that you're paying $5/hour to park in has stairs AND elevators, which one is for you to use and which one is for maintenance to use? Neither are clearly marked....but one uses a lot of power and the other doesn't.

Outlet boxes can be marked or not. They can ALSO be easily locked. Or not. In the absence of neither, and I'm legitimately parking there, I'll consider it available for my use.
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:05 pm

Jimmydreams wrote:
charlie1300 wrote:Unless the outlet has a sign that says "free EV charging here!", it is rude and presumptuous just to plug in without asking permission. It's not an issue of how many $$ worth of KW you are taking. It's that you are just taking it! Parking garages may have electrical outlets scattered around, but isn't that for their maintenance purposes?
So if a parking garage that you're paying $5/hour to park in has stairs AND elevators, which one is for you to use and which one is for maintenance to use? Neither are clearly marked....but one uses a lot of power and the other doesn't.

Outlet boxes can be marked or not. They can ALSO be easily locked. Or not. In the absence of neither, and I'm legitimately parking there, I'll consider it available for my use.

You are using straw man arguments to justify your actions. Business need to have lighting and it's usually a fixed cost each month they try to reduce with the shortest hours, more efficient bulbs etc. If you parked in my lot and did that and I caught you doing this without asking and that was your explanation I would have asked if I could come to your home or business and grab some extra supplies or perhaps dump my two bags of garbage in your trash because I bought something from you once. I bet if the situation were reversed and your electric bill went up $1K a month you would have new view on right and wrong. But justify away, it's the American way. We should start a thread on 1000 way s to justify taking something.


I was at Costco the other day and saw a woman taking at least 50 plastic bags off the reel at the meat dept. I asked her why she needed so many and she said she uses them at home. Somehow I don't think that Costco factors that in to their costs and when many people do crap like that it gets expensive. It's the same for pluging in where it is clearly not stipulated for customers. Somehow I think Costco expected one bag per item needed to wrap but the lady felt she was entitled to as many as she wanted because she shopped there. Patronizing a business does not entitle anyone to free charging unless they offer it, parking yes.

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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:07 pm

charlie1300 wrote:And after you just take it, and the garage manager gets pissed, what's going to be his reaction to the next EV owner who politely asks permission?
Then you stop patronizing the business and the parking manager gets fired ;)
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KeiJidosha
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:10 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
Jimmydreams wrote:
charlie1300 wrote:Unless the outlet has a sign that says "free EV charging here!", it is rude and presumptuous just to plug in without asking permission. It's not an issue of how many $$ worth of KW you are taking. It's that you are just taking it! Parking garages may have electrical outlets scattered around, but isn't that for their maintenance purposes?
So if a parking garage that you're paying $5/hour to park in has stairs AND elevators, which one is for you to use and which one is for maintenance to use? Neither are clearly marked....but one uses a lot of power and the other doesn't.

Outlet boxes can be marked or not. They can ALSO be easily locked. Or not. In the absence of neither, and I'm legitimately parking there, I'll consider it available for my use.

You are using straw man arguments to justify your actions. Business need to have lighting and it's usually a fixed cost each month they try to reduce with the shortest hours, more efficient bulbs etc. If you parked in my lot and did that and I caught you doing this without asking and that was your explanation I would have asked if I could come to your home or business and grab some extra supplies or perhaps dump my two bags of garbage in your trash because I bought something from you once. I bet if the situation were reversed and your electric bill went up $1K a month you would have new view on right and wrong. But justify away, it's the American way. We should start a thread on 1000 way s to justify taking something.


I was at Costco the other day and saw a woman taking at least 50 plastic bags off the reel at the meat dept. I asked her why she needed so many and she said she uses them at home. Somehow I don't think that Costco factors that in to their costs and when many people do crap like that it gets expensive. It's the same for plugin in where it is clearly not stipulated for customers. Somehow I think Costco expected one bag per item needed to wrap. Patronizing a business does not entitle anyone to free charging unless they offer it, parking yes.
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:18 pm

Exactly, ask and let the owner DECIDE. But making justifications and taking without asking is wrong no matter what silly reason one thinks they are entitled.

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garygid
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Re: Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:18 pm

Just because you pay for parking, does that entitle you to take the bulbs from their lighting fixtures?
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