User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11480
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:33 pm

DeaneG wrote:And of course the wall-to-wheels numbers should be about 15% lower than battery-to-wheels.
I expect the car wings and Leaf to show about 15% better numbers than wall to wheel readings. Anything more - there is some problem with the way Nissan calculates the numbers.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

User avatar
garygid
Gold Member
Posts: 12465
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 am
Delivery Date: 29 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000855
Location: Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:51 pm

Dave, sent you a PM about numbers.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius, now for sale
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2018 Tesla Model 3
2014 Tesla S, Model 3 in 2019
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
To Sell: X-treme 5000Li EV motorcycle

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14384
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:34 pm

Image
Image

screenshots i am referring to.

miles 53.8 and 57.3 with kwh from wall of 15.2 and 21.01.

now if using straight carwing #s. on the 27th 53.8 miles traveled at 6.4 DMPK makes real "DKWH" at 53.8/6.4=8.40 DKWH

on the 28th 57.3/4.2=13.64
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
garygid
Gold Member
Posts: 12465
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 am
Delivery Date: 29 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000855
Location: Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:32 pm

I believe that the CARWINGS "total" kWh numbers are calculated incorrectly, ROUGHLY having the (Full) "Regen" subtracted from "Consumed" where the "Recovered" Regen has (most likely) already been subtracted.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius, now for sale
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2018 Tesla Model 3
2014 Tesla S, Model 3 in 2019
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
To Sell: X-treme 5000Li EV motorcycle

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11480
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:42 pm

garygid wrote:I believe that the CARWINGS "total" kWh numbers are calculated incorrectly, ROUGHLY having the (Full) "Regen" subtracted from "Consumed" where the "Recovered" Regen has (most likely) already been subtracted.
So, you are saying 27.2 is already the net - not 21.5 ? That gives 3.97 mpkwh - a more believable figure. Still high compared to what OP says (less athn 3 mpkwh, w-to-w).
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

User avatar
garygid
Gold Member
Posts: 12465
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 am
Delivery Date: 29 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000855
Location: Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:20 pm

Without all the numbers, it is difficult to tell. But, I suspect that the following MIGHT fit the data better:

1. A/C and Heating might be incorrectly combined into the other-energy ("H") category.

2. The motor uses "T" Total energy from the battery:
a. "C" recovered from the "W" used to charge from the wall, and
b. "E" recovered from the Regen ("R") energy used to re-charge the battery while driving.

T=C+E
C+H is less than W, perhaps 85% to 90% of W (this includes losses in: EVSE, wires, charger, battery energy-in, and the larger battery energy-out loss)

E is less than R, assume E = 0.8 R (80% of R gets recovered)

3. The Net energy consumed by the "motor" is "C".

4. The motor energy-usage sensor in the LEAF might be reporting Z= C+E - R (outbound power minus inbound power) as the "consumed" figure to CARWINGS, which is incorrectly interpreted there as "Total consumption", and they use Z-R as their net motor-energy consumption value.
Note that Z-R=C+E-R-R

To figure net consumption however, we want just "C", but they are "almost" using C-R, way too low if there is any significant % of regen.

Assuming I am guessing correctly, instead of subtracting R they should ADD R and subtract E. Or, assuming E= 80% of R, just ADD something like 20% of R.

Doing that, adding about 0.2 x R to the CARWINGS "consumption" value, AND adding properly-reported "Other" energy usage value gets one closer to a value that matches "C+H", and is a reasonable percentage of W.

-------
Summary: take CARWINGS "consumption" and ADD (0.2 x R) and add a reasonable "other" figure, and see if that gives you a better-matching miles/kWh figure, and more-reasonable Wall-Charging losses.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius, now for sale
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2018 Tesla Model 3
2014 Tesla S, Model 3 in 2019
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
To Sell: X-treme 5000Li EV motorcycle

User avatar
EVDRIVER
Moderator
Posts: 6727
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:51 am

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:41 pm

Too bad no one has put kw meter on the car like there should have been all along. This would show total in to the pack and total out as well as go back up for regen giving an accurate net. One could take the start and finish numbers and compare them to the wall usage easily.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14384
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:48 pm

i still have to say that climate controls are not being shown here. with only 2 days to work with, i cant really say other than the 27th at 6.4 kwh was minimal climate control, the 28th was on more than 70% of the trip and i am to believe it went from .7 to 1.5??

also, why would Carwings lump accessories and climate controls together when the actual car does not?

sorry dont believe that and i am certain that this missing data will account for the discrepancies in the #'s.

one other piece of data to toss in. the Car's performance record i also reset daily. its the only thing in all this that makes sense

on the 27th it was 4.8, the 28th 3.6 that would give DKWH of 11.21 and 15.92 or 74% and 76% from the wall.

so we go back to Carwings figures where battery plus regen are 16.1 and 14.7 minus accesories or 15.4 and 13.2 KWH the car actually uses but Carwings seems to subtract regen from the figures it uses to get the DMPK figure??

have to agree with Gary, not right. the only thing that really matters is what needs to be replaced in the battery. which would be the 15.2 and the 21.01 AKWH. now assuming that is accurate we either have missing data or pretty poor charging efficiency.

we need more data to crunch.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14384
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:59 pm

ok, still not sure what is going on, but did a few test runs today and the climate controls are being combined. i did a run today with defrost both front and rear blasting away. did you know it runs as high as 4½ KWH? like wow! and it did register. so not sure what happened on the 28th since i would think that it would be higher than the 1.5 kwh recorded but then again, i was not the driver and probably am not getting accurate info, so there we go.

my efficiency is not as high as i expected it to be and wondering if charging at 220 volt is more efficient?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
DaveEV
Posts: 6241
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Charger Efficiency comparing 110 and 220

Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:52 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:my efficiency is not as high as i expected it to be and wondering if charging at 220 volt is more efficient?
It's quite possible as the on-board charger will have to increase voltage a lot higher than it would if it were on 220.

I know that even regular computer power supplies are very often at least a couple percent more efficient when running on 220 vs 120 and they are only converting AC to low voltage DC.

Really would be nice for someone to run some accurate tests...

Return to “Range / Efficiency / Carwings”