Charge a little each day, or longer charges every few days?

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Silverfish

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
29
Hi folks, first time, long time, etc.

I know this topic has been discussed a lot, but my Google-fu didn't yield answers to my specific questions. Or, rather, yielded too many contradictory answers.

I drive between 0 and 10 miles on most days, occasionally up to 25. (Work at home, so no commute as such.) My newly bought 2013 Leaf has an 80% range of 55-60 miles. I could easily charge only 2-3x a week and not worry about range.

Car has 53,000 miles and shows 11 bars, but really more like 10, according to SOH in LeafSpy. 2/2013 manufacture, so no lizard battery. I live in the Pacific Northwest and keep the car in a garage.

So: Is it better to charge a few miles every day? Or to get it down to 25-30% and then charge up to 80%, with a rare 100% charge for battery balancing? I want to maximize battery life.

Also, which is better for battery longevity: L1 or L2 charging? Both options are available. I don't foresee time being an issue, so I'm happy to use L1 if it extends battery life. If it really, truly, honestly doesn't matter, I'd probably go with L2 because it's on a dedicated circuit.

Thanks.
 
No difference between L1 and L2 charging. Both are slow enough that the battery isn't adversely affected. If your car has the 80% setting, I'd use that and plug in every night. If not, you could plug in if the car is more than 20% down. However I have a usage pattern similar to yours and, in my book that's too inconvenient for a questionable return in battery longevity, and I would plug in every night unless the day's use was truly minimal.
 
I'd also recommend L2 charging just because it's more efficient so you're using less energy to charge it the same amount, saving you money. Either way you're charging at a low enough rate that it probably won't affect the battery much.
 
I agree with davewill, plug in every night if the car has the "Long Life" (80% charging) option. I believe 2013 models still had it. I especially recommend this if you will be charging on L1, as it takes a long time to accrue range at 120V.

Do you already have L2? If not, and you have a robust L1 outlet not shared with anything else, I probably wouldn't bother with installing L2 given your daily range needs. I exclusively used L1 at home for the first 9 months I had a Leaf, and still use it as a "top up charge" on my eGolf as using the L2 EVSE in my garage requires backing that car in (charging port located right rear panel). You will use slightly more energy (L1 is not as efficient, plus ancillary systems will need to run longer), but I think someone here calculated it was very little added cost.
 
I agree with davewill, plug in every night if the car has the "Long Life" (80% charging) option. I believe 2013 models still had it. I especially recommend this if you will be charging on L1, as it takes a long time to accrue range at 120V.

The 2013 has Long Life (80%) available in the charge timers, and it also has an 80% or 100% limit setting for the car, regardless of charge timer. There is a useful trick that takes advantage of this: set a charge timer to 80% maximum charge, and have it start and end at the same time every day (example: 6:00PM to 6:00PM). Then set the car's charge limit to 100%. This allows you to charge to 80% normally without setting a new timer, but also lets you charge to 100% anytime you want, just by pressing the Timer Override button on the left side of the dash (it's a clock icon with a line through it, IIRC) when you plug in. You may see the car charge for less than 5 minutes at the start/end time every day, but it works fine.
 
Thanks, everyone.

RonDawg said:
Do you already have L2? If not, and you have a robust L1 outlet not shared with anything else, I probably wouldn't bother with installing L2 given your daily range needs.

I bought an L2 charging cable to fit the 20A/240V outlet the garage already had, which happened to be on a dedicated circuit, and which we never use for anything else. It came with the house. So I'm already set up for L2 charging, and it works fine. I had an electrician check it out before I used it.

I've got an L1 outlet shared with a few things that don't get used at night, so I've been using that sometimes too. I can get all the miles I need with the L1 in less than 8 hours, often in just 3-4 hours. Not sure how robust the outlet is, honestly. The L2 outlet is in better shape.

And yep, I've got the 80% option, both for the car itself and for the charging timers.

A question, though: If I've got it set to charge at 80%, and it's plugged in for 12 hours, what are the odds that the battery will deplete slightly and then charge a second and even third time? I ask because LeafSpy consistently lists 2-3 L1/L2 charges each time I do a single overnight charge, and that's the only explanation I can think of. The same thing happens with two different charging cables, or I'd suspect the cable & EVSE itself.

LeftieBiker said:
You may see the car charge for less than 5 minutes at the start/end time every day, but it works fine.

Is there a way to see how long the car actually charged for? I'm still learning about the car, LeafSpy, etc.

Thanks again.
 
Silverfish said:
Thanks, everyone.

RonDawg said:
Do you already have L2? If not, and you have a robust L1 outlet not shared with anything else, I probably wouldn't bother with installing L2 given your daily range needs.

I bought an L2 charging cable to fit the 20A/240V outlet the garage already had, which happened to be on a dedicated circuit, and which we never use for anything else. It came with the house. So I'm already set up for L2 charging, and it works fine. I had an electrician check it out before I used it.

I've got an L1 outlet shared with a few things that don't get used at night, so I've been using that sometimes too. I can get all the miles I need with the L1 in less than 8 hours, often in just 3-4 hours. Not sure how robust the outlet is, honestly. The L2 outlet is in better shape.

In that case, use the L2, especially if you're not sure about the condition of your L1 circuit and outlet.
 
I wouldn't charge to 80% in your case since the car would be at this level permanently.

The battery lasts the longest if you leave it constantly at 50%. So I would leave it at 40%-60%, and you have at least 20 miles of solid range at any time.

then charge the car with a timer back to 60% (unless you want to go farther). On those days, charge the car up to 100% and go,....
 
Silverfish said:
I ask because LeafSpy consistently lists 2-3 L1/L2 charges each time I do a single overnight charge, and that's the only explanation I can think of.

I believe the car counts plugging it in as one charge on the counter and then starting the actual charge as another charge on the counter. For my LEAF on L2 it pretty consistently goes up by 2 for every one charge.
 
powersurge said:
I wouldn't charge to 80% in your case since the car would be at this level permanently.

The battery lasts the longest if you leave it constantly at 50%. So I would leave it at 40%-60%, and you have at least 20 miles of solid range at any time.

then charge the car with a timer back to 60% (unless you want to go farther). On those days, charge the car up to 100% and go,....
And if a situation comes up where you want to go more than 20 miles away, but you didn't know that the night before? Keeping the battery that low is a ridiculous waste of effort for a very questionable return.
 
davewill said:
powersurge said:
I wouldn't charge to 80% in your case since the car would be at this level permanently.

The battery lasts the longest if you leave it constantly at 50%. So I would leave it at 40%-60%, and you have at least 20 miles of solid range at any time.

then charge the car with a timer back to 60% (unless you want to go farther). On those days, charge the car up to 100% and go,....
And if a situation comes up where you want to go more than 20 miles away, but you didn't know that the night before? Keeping the battery that low is a ridiculous waste of effort for a very questionable return.

I should have mentioned that we have a gas car too, so we can just switch vehicles if longer distances are called for. Otherwise, yeah, I'd keep the Leaf charged up all the time.
 
I commute to work average 20 miles a day, so I charge every 2-3 days depending on errands. Very rare I do it next day, because of too many miles driven. I think it is beneficial to get battery to low state once a month - it allows low charge state balance of cells and I usually charge L2 to 100% during night hours (with timer) when temperature is low. We know Nissan only charges to 90% of the real capacity. Also, we know that charging last 10% to reach real full capacity would take way too long, possibly the main reason why all EV manufacturers to limit it to 90% of real capacity. But when you fully charge it - it allows cells to balance in high charge state. Partial charge will not allow this to happened as battery do not reach saturation point. The Leaf battery is relatively small so loss of regen effectiveness during a few first miles on full battery is not a big of a deal.
 
Leaf15 said:
I commute to work average 20 miles a day, so I charge every 2-3 days depending on errands. Very rare I do it next day, because of too many miles driven. I think it is beneficial to get battery to low state once a month - it allows low charge state balance of cells and I usually charge L2 to 100% during night hours (with timer) when temperature is low. We know Nissan only charges to 90% of the real capacity. Also, we know that charging last 10% to reach real full capacity would take way too long, possibly the main reason why all EV manufacturers to limit it to 90% of real capacity. But when you fully charge it - it allows cells to balance in high charge state. Partial charge will not allow this to happened as battery do not reach saturation point. The Leaf battery is relatively small so loss of regen effectiveness during a few first miles on full battery is not a big of a deal.

When you say get the battery to a low state, do you mean to 30%, at the Low Battery Warning? Or do you mean even lower than that?

Thanks.
 
Silverfish said:
When you say get the battery to a low state, do you mean to 30%, at the Low Battery Warning? Or do you mean even lower than that?

Thanks.
I meant Low Battery warning that kicks in at 15 miles of range left. I usually drive a few miles at this point to get home. I never got below that (like in turtle mode) , it would be too daring. Interesting observation, I usually disable Eco mode at low battery and drive it like I stole it for a few miles, because of I know I could get home just in time. Try to go accelerate uphill in Eco mode and then half way turn off Eco mode. It would create an effect like somebody drops a sledge hammer. There is no way you can modulate this quickly with accelerator, the Eco On/Off is instant. This help to remind me this car is no slug at all. So when you get home with less than 15 miles left, let it sit for a while - this will allow cells to rebalance in low state. I plug the L2 charger, but charging (timer #1 configured this way) starts at 1:00AM and stops at 6:00AM. Someone also mentioned after this low to 100% charge cycle, let it sit for a few hours and then re-connect charger to top it off to complete the cell balancing.

There was a discussion how to keep battery healthy for a long time and there was one post about how one owner keeps battery in good shape for long time and this was suggested. Unfortunately, I could not find this post, but just remember the procedure. Anyway, being a mechanical engineer, I found it very reasonable suggestion. This is not every charge cycle, it was suggested to do it once every 2-3 month. I would do it when opportunity presents itself, so 2-3 month is plenty time to catch those moments.
 
So, I'm still don't not clear on the consensus for the original question...

Basically, if I only drive a few miles each week, should I L2 charge it even when I'm at 60-80% to charge it to 95% if the opportunity is there in short sittings...

... or should I wait until the battery goes down low to like 10-20% and charge it up to 95% in one long sitting?

Or does it not matter?
 
be236 said:
So, I'm still don't not clear on the consensus for the original question...

Basically, if I only drive a few miles each week, should I L2 charge it even when I'm at 60-80% to charge it to 95% if the opportunity is there in short sittings...

... or should I wait until the battery goes down low to like 10-20% and charge it up to 95% in one long sitting?

Or does it not matter?

It depends on the area where you live (or the average temperature). Dave here has a bog on EVs and the following post shows what state of charge is best for leaving it long (overnight or more)

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/10/

The chart in the blog shows ideal SoC for every temperature. Based on your location (and season), you can find what is right for you. Hope this helps.
 
I'm not sure how Dave arrived at the chart, but take it with a grain of salt. Generally, roughly a 50% charge is a good compromise between range and longevity for EVERY temperature.
 
Part of what's so confusing about all this is that so many people declare, with such conviction, such contradictory things, in various forum threads and websites:

"Stay around 50%. No, drain the battery down to 20-30% and then charge to 80%. Charge to 100%. Charge to 80%. It doesn't really matter if you charge to 100%. It does really matter if you charge to 100%. Charge to 100%, but make sure you jump in the car immediately and start driving. Charge to 100%, and it's fine to leave it that way for a day or two. Here's a chart. Here's a different chart. Quick charge is bad for the battery. Quick charge is fine, I do it all the time, and I haven't dropped a battery bar yet. Just drive the way you want to drive, and don't get too hung up on the details. Get hung up on the details or your battery will degrade quickly, and since they now cost $8500 to replace, you're hosed."

I don't mean to sound ungrateful; I genuinely appreciate all the advice I've gotten here, and all the posts I've read. It's just hard to know what to make of all the advice when you're a noob. Personally, I've observed that my battery SOH seems to improve when I drive longer distances at a time, counterintuitive as that seems, and also when I do a deeper discharge and then recharge, like from 30% to 80% instead of 40% to 60% -- but this is from LeafSpy, and apparently the SOH readings tend not to be reliable over short periods of time, so that observation may be totally wrong. And I've only had my car for a couple of months (2013 SV, 11 bars but dropping to 10 any minute now, non-lizard battery).

I have no idea how everyone came to their recommendations. It's possible that no one really knows for sure, and since people's experiences are different, their advice is different. The only things people seem to mostly agree on are:

1. L1 and L2 charging keeps the battery cooler, which is good. Quick charge (L3) only when necessary.
2. Heat isn't great for the battery.
3. Driving faster drains the battery faster.
4. Drive gently to extend range.

Right now, what I'm doing is charging to 80%, driving for a few days until I hit the low battery warning (at a little over 30%), and then recharging to 80%, typically at night when temps are at their coolest. I'm collecting data as I do that, mostly about miles driven and SOC, which seem to be the most solid numbers. I may then try the same thing charging to 100%, and compare data.

I did try charging a bit each day and keeping the battery between 40% and 60%, but the SOH did not seem to like that -- which, again, might be meaningless over such a short period of time.
 
Right now, what I'm doing is charging to 80%, driving for a few days until I hit the low battery warning (at a little over 30%), and then recharging to 80%, typically at night when temps are at their coolest. I'm collecting data as I do that, mostly about miles driven and SOC, which seem to be the most solid numbers. I may then try the same thing charging to 100%, and compare data.

This is a good strategy. However, you shouldn't be getting any kind of "low battery warning" at 30%, unless you have a severely degraded battery. More like 18-20%.

As for the motivations behind what you see posted here: some people want you to do as they do, or at least to stop worrying completely about the battery, so they tell you to charge it to 100% and drive it any way you want. Others look at lithium battery lab tests and want you to do what is best for a battery sitting on a test bench, with no concern for range, or temperatures. As for me, I've been reading what people do in the real world, done some real world testing myself, and I try to suggest what works reasonably well without requiring any extreme measures. (If I do suggest extreme measures, like for cars in Hot climates, I make it clear that it shouldn't be like this in 2018, and shame on Nissan.)
 
LeftieBiker said:
This is a good strategy. However, you shouldn't be getting any kind of "low battery warning" at 30%, unless you have a severely degraded battery. More like 18-20%.

In the two months I've had the car, I always get a low battery warning at 16-17 miles on the guess-o-meter, which registers as between 29% and 32% in LeafSpy. I did wonder about that.

How would I know if I had a severely degraded battery? The range is pretty consistent at about 70-75 miles on the GoM at 100% charge, and 55-60 miles at 80% charge, depending on how much freeway driving I've been doing. On 100% charge, I can generally drive 50-55 miles before hitting the low battery warning. On an 80% charge, it's about 30-35.

It's a 2013 SV with about 53,700 miles and 11 bars. SOH is hovering between 76% and 77%, so I'm surprised it's not yet at 10 bars. Do all those numbers not add up right? Maybe there's a way to reset the % at which the LBW sounds, and the previous owner did? I'd be happy to drive it down to 20%, just been nervous because of the warning.

Thanks.
 
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