klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
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Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:41 pm

I had exactly the same experience in Seattle (it was 32F). Only I did not get home, but was left without power 2 miles from home. Note that throughout the whole trip I had the heater off. So why is the range reduced in cold weather? Nissan says the capacity does not change much in cold weather. If heating is the only factor, why with heating off, is the range still lower? Or
is the battery capacity reduced? Carwings, which is notoriously unprecise, did give me a total use of 14 kWh for that day. The car started at 80% charged, so that would mean at cold temperatures, i.e. ~32-40 (The car is in a closed garage, which is slightly warmer than the outside) the battery would hold 17.5 kWH instead of 20 kWH. Still not clear why this reduced the range from 60 miles (beginning of my 40 mile roundtrip) to 38?

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:01 pm

reduction in cold weather;

higher bearing friction; listed EVERYWhere, i personally think it to be nominal at best we say 1%

higher road resistance; rain, snow, etc. it all creates drag.

wind; not sure what day you were talking about, but we did have a few windy days. a 15 mph (which was wind speeds experienced in large percentage of Puget Sound area last week) headwind at speeds above 50 mph is a 25% increase in power needed to move along

cold air; cold air vibrates slower which means cold air molecules can snuggle better than wild hot ones which makes for more air to push when driving down the road. this is #1 factor lowering efficiency as much as 4-6%. now i dont know how the percentages are figured. there was a great discussion i glanced over on several websites. but you can get a start by examing "STP" which means standard temperature and pressure which says a "mole" of a gas which is about 22 liters give or take will weigh its approximate atomic # in grams.... or something along the lines of that. add to that the fact that all moles of all substances have the exact same # of molecules...

ok, now you know why i just glanced at it.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
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Nufkin
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:32 am

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:16 pm

klapauzius wrote:Still not clear why this reduced the range from 60 miles (beginning of my 40 mile roundtrip) to 38?
Are you saying the range you got at 0C or 32F @ 80% charge was 38 miles? Which would mean 47.5miles for 100% charge... That's got to be wrong. How were you driving? Can you give us more details? Or have I miss-read something.

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evnow
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:20 pm

klapauzius wrote:Still not clear why this reduced the range from 60 miles (beginning of my 40 mile roundtrip) to 38?
After charging to 80% did the car show 60 mile range ? Is that with climate or without ?

As you know the range depends on the way you have been driving - not on the way you will drive. So, if the way you will drive is very different from the way you have been driving - the range estimate will be highly inaccurate.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
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klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:02 pm

Sorry about the confusion, so here are the facts:

Car was charged at 80% in the morning. It had been driven for ~ 12 miles before the ~40 mile round trip to the airport.
When going on that round trip, the range estimate was 60 miles. No heating was used.
After driving 38 miles to and fro the car went dead 2 miles from home.
Carwings reported ~ 14 kWH used for that whole day. I know the car was completely empty, ergo 14 kWh=80% charge at 0 C -> 17.5 kWH at 100%.

If the usable capacity would be 20 kWh at e.g. 25 C, I could believe this number and not assume something was wrong with the battery.
If the usable capacity would be 24 kWH at 25C, this would probably be a problem.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14204
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Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:40 pm

My SO did centralia yesterday at 100%. She did 70 mph and did 61 miles and was at ... for range estimate. Mpk was 3.1 miles per k... so would imply about 20 kwh used. Unlike u, she blasts the heat
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
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evnow
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Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:59 pm

klapauzius wrote:Car was charged at 80% in the morning. It had been driven for ~ 12 miles before the ~40 mile round trip to the airport.
When going on that round trip, the range estimate was 60 miles. No heating was used.
After driving 38 miles to and fro the car went dead 2 miles from home.
Carwings reported ~ 14 kWH used for that whole day. I know the car was completely empty, ergo 14 kWh=80% charge at 0 C -> 17.5 kWH at 100%.
So, on 80% charge you drove a total of 50 miles ?

I'd ignore both the estimate (since that was based on your 12 mile trip, probably local, compared to freeway trip to seatac). I'd also not give much credense to Cawings, it routinely inflates m/kwh - so the kwh reported is low.

Since you had done 12 miles already - you probably had about 65% charge. You only got 38 miles out of that using freeway, but no heat. I'd say there was some problem ...

What is Nissan's official response ? Are they still investigating ?
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
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Jimmydreams
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Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:01 pm

klapauzius wrote:S
After driving 38 miles to and fro the car went dead 2 miles from home.
Did you get the normal "Low Battery" and "Very Low Battery" warnings plus Turtle Mode before running out of juice, or did the car just die on you?

Also, how fast were you driving? Were you in D the entire time or ECO mode anywhere along the way??
JimmyD
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DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14204
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
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Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:32 pm

I am not sure that I see an issue here. With elevation issues freeway speeds heating etc I can and do see ranges as low as 65 miles on a full charge. So at 80% and having driven 60 miles I would ha e to say that that would be near normal. The big thing is not relying on range estimate since it uses driving history instead of k.owing where u r going. I see this a lot cause I drive city steers which inflates the range then SO jumps on freeway and range goes from 109 to 75 in a few miles
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:17 pm

I got all the warnings, yes. I got ~ 400 meters with turtle mode, before it died completely.
I am not sure that I see an issue here. With elevation issues freeway speeds heating etc I can and do see ranges as low as 65 miles on a full charge. So at 80% and having driven 60 miles I would ha e to say that that would be near normal.
This was basically a round trip and the driving behavior did not change significantly between the trip to and from the airport. Same roads, same speeds (55 MPh on I5), same temperature and NO heater on. The total freeway driving part of the trip is ~ 14 miles (i.e. 28 total). And I have not driven 60 miles on 80% charge, more like 54. And about half of it at freeway speeds.
The problem is really that the last miles are the ones that count. Even the difference between e.g. 60 predicted and 58 until empty means you need a tow truck. In my case it was 60 predicted and 38 actual miles and that is not acceptable. I understand that one should not take the DTE to seriously, but overestimating range by 50% is bad. Given all the implications, Nissan should change the algorithm to underestimate by a 10% margin.
Another bad feature of the range estimation is this: If you switch to ECO mode, the DTE goes up, even if you are on the freeway and there is no difference between ECO and D at all.

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