DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14207
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:16 pm

Your "Eco to drive" on the freewway observation is an inoteresting point. Despite being low enough to not have a DTE at all a few times, I ha e only been in turtle mode one time. On the 9 power circles I did lose 6 of them in just over 2miles and that was at speeds of 30-40 mph. But at the same time we do know how the DTE is calculated and if we know that our trip in front of us is going to be faster or less efficient that does need to be taken into consideration.
e maybe a charge meter would be better. One that tells us how much kwh is left and we have to work the range out on our own
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
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Jimmydreams
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:44 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0175
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:03 pm

klapauzius wrote:Another bad feature of the range estimation is this: If you switch to ECO mode, the DTE goes up, even if you are on the freeway and there is no difference between ECO and D at all.
I disagree.

While you won't get ALL of the "10% increasewith ECO" on the highway, you do get a much improved boost. ECO on the highway makes it harder to goose-and-waste energy with the go-pedal....it makes you push harder for less energy output and it seems to me that it also smooths the peaks and valleys of the energy used in normal D mode to increase your range.

Don't believe me? Drive the same route in D and then the route at the same speeds (no cheating and using cruise control!) in ECO. I'll bet your range is at least 5-7% higher in ECO, and when you're pushing the limits of the stored energy in your pack, that's nothing to take lightly.
JimmyD
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DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14207
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:46 pm

just got home, drove 89 miles on the Leaf and started with 9 of 10 white bars. granted, it was all city driving and a lot of cruising neighborhoods at 25 mph looking at houses and stuff, so the advertised range of 100 miles is a bit deceptive because only in the manner i drove today would i see that.

but i knew not to expect 100 miles in normal freeway driving. i expected 70 and it wintry conditions, it might appear to be only 60, but i already knew that and i was ok with that. it does do the longest normal driving we would do, has done it half a dozen times and it does not always have a lot left when it gets home, but its made it.

i think what we all need to do is get more feedback on what info the car does tell us when the charge is running low. like when do we lose the DTE (usually around 6-7 miles) and how far we can drive and at what conditions when the power circles start to disappear. unlike the range estimates, when the circles start to go, they go fast.

now there is still a discussion on the size of the battery pack but its apparent to me that its a 24 KWH pack and there is NOT 24 kwh to use. its probably more like 20-21 KWH. this is based on general info here and personal experiences based on what the car is telling me its performing at.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
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klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:55 pm

ECO on the highway makes it harder to goose-and-waste energy with the go-pedal....it makes you push harder for less energy output and it seems to me that it also smooths the peaks and valleys of the energy used in normal D mode to increase your range.
If I use cruise control, which I always do, there should be no difference as I dont have a foot on the gas pedal. Still ECO gives you instantly more "Miles", which cannot be real.

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Jimmydreams
Posts: 1500
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Leaf Number: 0175
Location: Oceanside, Ca.
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:07 pm

klapauzius wrote:
ECO on the highway makes it harder to goose-and-waste energy with the go-pedal....it makes you push harder for less energy output and it seems to me that it also smooths the peaks and valleys of the energy used in normal D mode to increase your range.
If I use cruise control, which I always do, there should be no difference as I dont have a foot on the gas pedal. Still ECO gives you instantly more "Miles", which cannot be real.

There IS a difference but only if you quit using cruise control. Cruise control will jam the gas pedal if it has to to keep your speed at the set amount. If you're manually driving using ECO mode, I guarantee your speed will fluctuate and will always be lower than whatever speed you would normally have CC set for. And because you will be reacting to speed reductions 'through' ECO mode (driving 'though' that molasses feeling), your power usage will be less.

If you're in D and you press the gas enough to use 40 watts on the meter for 10 seconds, you'll go from zero to 40 watts in about 1/2 second and run at 40 watts for the next 9.5 seconds. If you do the same thing using ECO mode, it will take you about 2 seconds (maybe more) to reach 40 watts, so you're only there for 8 seconds or less. ECO mode slows the rate that the energy flows out of the battery every time you press the gas pedal....over a 60 mile trip, you'll see real, tangible range increase.

Try making your drive in ECO mode without cruise control....I'll bet you see at least 5+% increase in range.
JimmyD
http://www.jjhamilton.com/solar
Blue SL Leaf delivered 1/7/2011
EVP participant. EVSE: Blink
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DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14207
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:21 pm

Driving efficiently usually means not using CC unless u have a lead foot. Easing the speed up while down hills and slowly bleeding that extra speed while going uphills can increase your mileage.

Taking advantage of gravity can help but difficult to do while on the freeway especially around here where traffics usually does not allow much room for too much variance from the norm
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
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garygid
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Delivery Date: 29 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000855
Location: Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA

Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:20 am

Accurate range estimates require two things:
1. an accurate estimate of the usable energy left in the battery.
2. an accurate estimate of your future driving conditions and habits.

Of course #2 uses your "recent" past history, which might be a good, or terrible, estimate. For the moment, let's assume it is a good estimate, with near identical past and future driving conditions.

The remaining usable energy estimate can be good, or poor, depending upon how it is done. It appears that the LEAF has enough information (the cell voltages, etc.) to make some reasonable ESTIMATES, but that it might not use all the available information to create (calculate) the SOC value (that it crudely displays), and probably uses in the Range calculation.

The lowest, weakest, least-charged cell-pair is what really determines when the car will stop. The pack voltage (sum of all the cell-pairs) can look good, like the battery has a good SOC, and the Pack Voktage could be used to calculate an "apparent" SOC estimate. However, one low cell-pair COULD stop the car long before this "apparent" SOC goes low.

Further, it was just reported in another thread (I cannot remember which one) information (apparently from the Service Manual) that indicated that the PACK voltage IS used to derive the "SOC", not the "lowest cell-pair" information.

Then, this "apparent" SOC could be still relatively high, but the car's "protect-the-lowest-cell" monitoring MIGHT shut down the driving much earlier than expected.

IF TRUE, this could explain the several cases of "unexpected exhaustion", and the lack of the "Low Battery" warnings (assuming that they are indeed, as reported, based on this "apparent" SOC).
Last edited by garygid on Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
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garygid
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Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:30 am

Under the typical conditions where the 96 cell-pairs are well matched, and equalized to the same "individual" SOC, using the Pack voltage to calculate the "apparent" SOC is a reasonable, and even typical choice.

But in some cases of mis-match, especially before a sufficient number of equilization cycles are completed, even well-matched cell-pairs can have an SOC substantially different from the "apparent" Pack SOC.

It would appear that deriving the estimated SOC from the LOWEST cell could allow the car to create more timely warnings.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius, now for sale
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2018 Tesla Model 3
2014 Tesla S, Model 3 in 2019
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
To Sell: X-treme 5000Li EV motorcycle

stanley
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Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:44 am

garygid-Your knowlege is amazing!! Thank You for helping a novice figure out how EV`s function

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garygid
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Re: Leaf Range in Colder Weather

Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:12 am

Thanks, but I could be wrong.

For now, I suspect that it is better/best to make sure (how?) that your battery is WELL equalized before attempting to drive anywhere the range limits or onto the lower SOC values.

Some report VERY GOOD low end warnings and LONG turtle mode driving. PROBABLY (my present guess) is that they have well-equalized battey cells, that are also well matched.

So, when somebody gets few/no/short warnings before "running dry", there is SOMETHING that needs attention.

Of course there COULD be poorly-matched cell-pairs, but only dealer service (or CAN buss reading) will reveal that.

If all your cells are WELL equalized, and you still "unexpectedly run dry" (even when watching for "Low Battery" warnings), then you PROBABLY have a low-capacity cell-pair and a dealer should at least do a diagnostic to see if there is a "strange/low" cell-pair. The diagnostic should NOT be done at full charge, but probably something like 30% to 50% ... as low as you can safely go and still get to the dealer.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius, now for sale
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2018 Tesla Model 3
2014 Tesla S, Model 3 in 2019
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
To Sell: X-treme 5000Li EV motorcycle

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