SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:40 pm

golfcart wrote: I don't road trip in my Leaf. I commute
You didn't answer -- did you read the study method I posted for you in the OP ?
If not, please read it before you post again in this thread.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

golfcart
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:01 pm

SageBrush wrote:
golfcart wrote: I don't road trip in my Leaf. I commute
You didn't answer -- did you read the study method I posted for you in the OP ?
If not, please read it before you post again in this thread.
I read the article and the .pdf document you posted describing the methodology. I stand by my statements regarding the usefulness of the study. If I chose to not post again in the thread it'll be because there isn't much more to say at this point...
2018 SV

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:01 pm

No one has to read anything to post here. It does help to know what you are writing about, but that isn't mandatory.

I do all short to medium trips, usually with two cold soaks. I haven't measured it, but my range drop is roughly 25% above freezing, 35% or so down to single digits, and possibly 40% below that. I've only taken a couple of short drives in that last category. I agree that it's inappropriate to expect people to drive without cabin heat, or with little heat, although they should definitely know how to reduce it, use partial recirculate if possible, and use the seat and wheel heaters - not for everyday driving, but for low-range emergencies.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:12 pm

golfcart wrote: I read the article and the .pdf document you posted describing the methodology.
Then you hopefully noticed that they followed the EPA drive cycles, but mangled the protocol for establishing driving RANGE

There is good reason that the EPA has a RANGE protocol for long drives, and it emphatically does not represent YOUR commuting habits. When people buy 250+ mile RANGE EVs they have road tripping in mind; they do not care about the 2-3 kWh hour heating penalty they incur driving around the city during their commuting. AAA is telling their readers that the practical range on a 25F day on a road trip is about half of rated and that is BS.

Unlike you, I own and drive an EV that I use for road trips of ~ 250 miles and I live in a cold (but not artic) climate. If I pre-condition the car a little, I consume ~ EPA expected despite running winter tyres, meaning ~ 250 Wh/mile. In nice weather with summer tyres I consume about 220 Wh/mile. I use cabin heating to supplement heat seating and to keep the windows clear. The cabin is cool and I am comfortable.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

golfcart
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:03 pm

SageBrush wrote:
golfcart wrote: I read the article and the .pdf document you posted describing the methodology.
Then you hopefully noticed that they followed the EPA drive cycles, but mangled the protocol for establishing driving RANGE

There is good reason that the EPA has a RANGE protocol for long drives, and it emphatically does not represent YOUR commuting habits. When people buy 250+ mile RANGE EVs they have road tripping in mind; they do not care about the 2-3 kWh hour heating penalty they incur driving around the city during their commuting. AAA is telling their readers that the practical range on a 25F day on a road trip is about half of rated and that is BS.

Unlike you, I own and drive an EV that I use for road trips of ~ 250 miles and I live in a cold (but not artic) climate. If I pre-condition the car a little, I consume ~ EPA expected despite running winter tyres, meaning ~ 250 Wh/mile. In nice weather with summer tyres I consume about 220 Wh/mile. I use cabin heating to supplement heat seating and to keep the windows clear. The cabin is cool and I am comfortable.
Keep arguing against that straw man, you're doing great.
2018 SV

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:14 pm

golfcart wrote: Keep arguing against that straw man, you're doing great.
As for you, I'm going to recommend to the AAA that they write a follow-up article: "It takes Electric Energy to Heat up a Cabin after a Cold Soak in an EV."

Who wudda thunk !?!!
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

golfcart
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:08 am
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:09 am

SageBrush wrote:
golfcart wrote: Keep arguing against that straw man, you're doing great.
As for you, I'm going to recommend to the AAA that they write a follow-up article: "It takes Electric Energy to Heat up a Cabin after a Cold Soak in an EV."

Who wudda thunk !?!!
They already wrote that article... hence this discussion. I thought that was obvious at this point from their testing method.

But sure, write AAA and cc me I'd love to see the response. Be sure to call the average consumer a "fool" as many times as possible for using the heater when it is cold outside like they would in their ICE vehicle (that the EV is so much better than). You might even want to express your concern for them "heating against their own self interest", that'd be a great line it has worked so well in other arenas. And call them dumbasses for not having the option to pre-condition the cabin at the office, mall, grocery store, or restaurant when they are going about their normal routine. It isn't the cars fault they only get 70% of the EPA range between charges during a normal work week, they just haven't structured their lives properly around their EV. :lol:
2018 SV

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:56 am

golfcart wrote:Be sure to
What a pile of reactionary, straw man stupidity.
like they would in their ICE vehicle
One of these years you just might catch on that an EV and an ICE are a bit different.

You deserve a Darwin award
Last edited by SageBrush on Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13313
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:02 am

How about you two cut it out? Make all the scathing rebuttals you like, just severely limit the personal insults.

The report is a big step in the right direction. It's a shame it didn't come out 5 years ago, so that by now the issue would be common knowledge, along with the steps needed to mitigate it - and maybe some successful lawsuits against dealerships for fraudulent sales tactics.

Yeah, right. I'd better get to bed - I'm overtired.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:16 am

LeftieBiker wrote: The report is a big step in the right direction.
If you want FUD, sure.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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