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Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:19 am
by golfcart
SageBrush wrote:
You deserve a Darwin award
3 edits later and that is your response... bravo!

Considering the fact that Darwin awards are given to "recognize individuals who have supposedly contributed to human evolution by selecting themselves out of the gene pool via death or sterilization by their own actions" it wouldn't be a stretch to call that bullying. What do you think moderators??

Tell me SageBrush, should I die or be sterilized for acknowledging EV's have a weak spot in cold weather? Please clarify.

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:39 am
by LeftieBiker
I've asked you both to dial it back. You seem to be bullying each other, more or less. That's it from me until much later today.

I wonder if the AAA was expecting the InterWeb to bet set afire by their report...

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:19 am
by EatsShootsandLeafs
SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: The report is a big step in the right direction.
If you want FUD, sure.
I maintain there is value in the report. You can take issue of their use of the word "RANGE", if you want, call it whatever you like, but in my experience, and the experience of some others who posted in this thread, they have found real world experiences to mirror what this study found. Namely there is a significant reduction in range, capacity, miles, whatever you want to call it when it's cold. And that reduction can be very large.

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:56 am
by SageBrush
EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: The report is a big step in the right direction.
If you want FUD, sure.
I maintain there is value in the report. You can take issue of their use of the word "RANGE", if you want, call it whatever you like, but in my experience, and the experience of some others who posted in this thread, they have found real world experiences to mirror what this study found. Namely there is a significant reduction in range, capacity, miles, whatever you want to call it when it's cold. And that reduction can be very large.
The emphasis should be on "CAN BE."
In other news hot off the AAA press, ICE cars sitting idling at stoplights suffer a drop in MPG so you should think twice about taking an ICE on a road trip.

I'm reminded of all the stories of people trying to escape the flooding in Houston a couple of years ago and running out of fuel on the road. Who wudda thunk that sitting in the car stuck in traffic with the windows up and the AC blasting would cut their range ?!?? I'm only surprised that the EPA was not sued for false advertising :lol: :lol:

Here a a couple of facts that people who are not complete morons take for granted:
1. Seat heating is much more efficient than cabin heating for personal comfort
2. The heat required to heat up something in the car is a lot more than the heat required to KEEP it at temperature.
3. It is idiotic to expend battery energy on heating areas of the car that no one comes into contact with.
4. An ICE and an EV are not identical.

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:01 am
by golfcart
EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: The report is a big step in the right direction.
If you want FUD, sure.
I maintain there is value in the report. You can take issue of their use of the word "RANGE", if you want, call it whatever you like, but in my experience, and the experience of some others who posted in this thread, they have found real world experiences to mirror what this study found. Namely there is a significant reduction in range, capacity, miles, whatever you want to call it when it's cold. And that reduction can be very large.

I venture to guess that most of us agree with your assessment. This study provides useful information when put in the proper context. If you take a bunch of short trips (like most people do) and the car cools off between trips (like most cars do) and you turn the heat on when you get in (like most people do) then this test does a decent job or representing typical EV range losses on cold days. We can debate if that is the best way to drive an EV but it is certainly not an usual way for people to drive their cars.

We also all understand that if you pre-heat the cabin, bundle up, and use seat/steering wheel heaters you can get much better range on cold days. No regular poster on this forum would argue with that, even apparent "complete morons" like myself. :D

Of course, in addition to our personal preferences, some of us have wives that like to be warm and want the heater on. And some of us have people that sit in the back seat who would also like to be warm where there aren't heated seats. And some of us have children in car seats who we'd like to stay warm and who can't benefit from seat heaters because they are in a car seat or wear heavy coats in the car seats because it is dangerous. Some of us don't have to consider those things but some of us do. And they all matter as well.

At the end of the day I just want people to know what they are getting themselves into. We can differ on the best way to communicate that but the media and the dealerships definitely aren't communicating it well up until now. If they were then people wouldn't be so surprised when winter hits and their EV only goes 70% as far on a charge as they expected and we wouldn't have articles about it and need studies to examine it.

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:05 pm
by powersurge
I am a psychologist, and am familiar with "studies".... Most things that are reported in print or on the news are not really "Studies", and most of all, not scientific. I could do a study asking 10 people if they prefer "Pizza" or "Hamburgers". Let's stay 7 out of 10 say the prefer PIZZA. Then you could write a "study" that says "70% of Americans have reduced their meat eating because meat is unhealthy".

I suggest that when you hear about a "Study", try to answer two questions.. 1) What is the overall message they are trying to convey, and 2) Who would benefit the most by affecting you to change your behavior after hearing of the "Study".

In this case, the article used a trusted sounding source (AAA) to tell you that EVs are not really as good as they may seem. Who would want this information to be advertised? Maybe.... Gas companies.. Or even better... Car companies... Who pays a lot to AAA - Car companies.. This is just more fake news propaganda to keep people on the fence about adopting EVs.. Don't take it seriously. You could easily fight back by saying, "Gasoline vehicles in cities lose 50% of their mileage!!" Yeah because they are stuck in traffic.

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:59 pm
by Oilpan4
I can easily cut my range in half by not slowing down and running the heater till I'm very comfortable..
Denying the issue doesn't make it go away.
Diesel fired heaters will help.

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:39 am
by EatsShootsandLeafs
powersurge wrote:I am a psychologist, and am familiar with "studies".... Most things that are reported in print or on the news are not really "Studies", and most of all, not scientific. I could do a study asking 10 people if they prefer "Pizza" or "Hamburgers". Let's stay 7 out of 10 say the prefer PIZZA. Then you could write a "study" that says "70% of Americans have reduced their meat eating because meat is unhealthy".

I suggest that when you hear about a "Study", try to answer two questions.. 1) What is the overall message they are trying to convey, and 2) Who would benefit the most by affecting you to change your behavior after hearing of the "Study".

In this case, the article used a trusted sounding source (AAA) to tell you that EVs are not really as good as they may seem. Who would want this information to be advertised? Maybe.... Gas companies.. Or even better... Car companies... Who pays a lot to AAA - Car companies.. This is just more fake news propaganda to keep people on the fence about adopting EVs.. Don't take it seriously. You could easily fight back by saying, "Gasoline vehicles in cities lose 50% of their mileage!!" Yeah because they are stuck in traffic.
As a psychologist you are of course familiar with confirmation bias, which perhaps you express a little of in your post :)

Have you actually explored the methodology in their study/analysis? I haven't. But I don't think AAA would come up with a totally rubbish pro-oil study. Is it not a scientifically reasonable study? Is it not at all repeatable? Do they not have enough data points to make a statistically relevant observation?
Oilpan4 wrote:I can easily cut my range in half by not slowing down and running the heater till I'm very comfortable..
Denying the issue doesn't make it go away.
Diesel fired heaters will help.
Yes, I really believe personally that promoting the idea that to drive an EV we should be wearing thicker gloves and dealing with a "cool" cabin temperature is not doing anybody in the movement any favors.

I personally refuse to compromise on the cabin temperature. Does that make me spoiled or selfish, I don't really care. I just will not do it. I like heated seats and steering wheels and I like a warm cabin.

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:58 am
by SageBrush
EatsShootsandLeafs wrote: I really believe personally that promoting the idea that to drive an EV we should be wearing thicker gloves and dealing with a "cool" cabin temperature is not doing anybody in the movement any favors.
Straw man arguments.
I do not wear thicker gloves;
The 'cool' cabin temperature I mentioned is the temperature I am comfortable in the winter.
So that is for many but not all people. I do not doubt you are spoiled.


However, none of that makes the AAA study garbage. it is garbage because their protocol is not a range test by accepted norms such as published by the EPA. AAA devised a test that uses a lot energy to heat/reheat/reheat ... the car and published the result that battery energy was consumed.

I would have guessed that even science illiterate would find that obvious but I obviously give too much credit to some people.

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:29 am
by powersurge
To Mr. Eatsandshootsleafs

I actually DO HAVE AN AGENDA... And your trust of an article is naively trusting of the media.

I will defend EVs as useful, wonderful technology against the news writers that are constantly hunting for controversy. Yes, range goes down in the winter, just like with any other car....

What I am against is for these articles to poison the well for others who may wish to get an electric vehicle. They have limitations, but they work.

Complaining about winter range is like complaining when planes were just invented - - To complain that the propellers are not fast enough, and to wait for jet engines... They are useful today... So shut up and stop complaining..