SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:31 am

specialgreen wrote: I'm suggesting something simple like:

- City commute: 9 miles of range reduction per 15 minutes of commute time (*)
- Highway commute: 5 miles of range reduction per 15 minutes of commute time (**)
Try it out on some of our challenged members.

Personally, I do something similar but in terms of power:
Pre-heat the car
~ 1 - 1.5 kW heating load between the seats and forced air-flow.
Then I figure 60 mph during trips so about 15 - 25 Wh/mile extra in the winter on dry roads
This matches up with my experience.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 11205
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:22 pm

Any assertion that AAA is biased against EVs is unsupported by evidence. They did a test designed around routine daily driving, and as those of us who've follow this stuff closely know, BEVs suffer severe range loss in that scenario. As the majority of AAA members (and all car owners) don't have any experience with BEVs, and are unaware of the differences between their and ICE behavior (which we've had over a century to get used to), anything that gets the word out to a wider general audience (i.e., not limited to those who visit EV forums) should help eliminate much of the buyer's remorse that has been exhibited here and elsewhere over the past 7 years, when non-technically-inclined buyers find that their new BEV's range is subject to all sorts of caveats that often never even makes it into the fine print, and which may require them to make compromises or alter their own behavior in ways which an ICE doesn't.

There's a huge difference between "If I'm burning more gas while it's cold, I need to go to the gas station every five days instead of once a week", and "Do I have to chose between using the heat or getting home?" IIRR, the shortest period between BEV new car excitement, disillusion*1 and dumping it*2 reported here was about four weeks, when a member in Chicago got his LEAF on Dec. 21st, 2011, used it for a bit, experienced his first cold trip with his family in the car where he had to make just that kind of calculation above, and ditched his LEAF for a Volt which wouldn't require him to make that trade-off. Sure, if he'd known to ask about this before he'd bought the car we could have saved him several thousand dollars as well as considerable angst, but he didn't, nor should anyone need to find a specialized forum such as this one and know to ask to learn that info. Once everyone's used to BEV behavior people will know what to expect, but we're likely decades away from that sort of universal knowledge.

The only way for BEVs to become mainstream is to eliminate those concerns and compromises as much as possible by increasing the car's battery capacity (at an affordable price) so that they're no longer a factor, along with boosting the charging infrastructure and speed. Calling mainstream consumers idiots or morons for expecting that a car shouldn't control their lives isn't an effective alternative to get them to switch. I had thought that we were past this sort of elitist attitude here, but clearly some still hold it.


*1viewtopic.php?f=48&t=357&hilit=chicagol ... 60#p163317

*2 viewtopic.php?f=48&t=357&p=168416#p168416
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

iPlug
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:19 pm

The EPA says: "Fuel economy tests show that, in short-trip city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is about 12% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 22% for very short trips (3 to 4 miles)..."
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml

Anecdotal evidence on my part, but only 22% drop on very short trips (3 to 4 miles) with an ICE is far too optimistic.

My former ICE experience at these temps is about a 40% drop in mpg going 3-4 miles at cold soaked 20°F compared to 77°F.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

GerryAZ
Gold Member
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Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:46 pm

I was staying on the sidelines, but decided to reply with some observations:

Cold weather, short trip efficiency of gasoline engine vehicles varies a lot. I have a couple of 4WD vehicles with cast iron straight six cylinder engines. They take some time to warm up and provide heat in cold weather, but have minimal loss of efficiency. They also stay warm during short stops so that heat is available when restarting. The newer one is OBDII compliant and uses a bit more gasoline when cold trying to warm up quicker, but not a lot. Later versions of the same SUV (and other similar sized SUVs) that I have driven for work waste a lot more fuel during cold starts, but warm up much quicker (and cool off fast when turned off). It appears that the newer vehicles burn extra fuel to warm up the engine and get into closed loop emissions control mode sooner. I was really surprised how much gasoline it took using one of the newer SUVs as a portable office in 0 degree F weather (efficiency loss was way more than 22%). I have never read media reports of how much fuel the newer vehicles waste in cold weather.

It appears that AAA did not operate the EVs the way an owner would. They should have started with the car preheated while plugged in so that the first trip started with a full charge and warm car and then complete their short trip cycles. An EV is ideal for short trip use in cold weather as long as it has enough battery capacity to handle the daily driving needs because there is no wear from cold starts and no need to wait for oil pressure to build up before driving (the car is ready to drive as soon as it completes it boot up sequence).
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL+ purchased 8/10/2019

BuckMkII
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:38 pm

I dislike AAA as much as almost anyone sane, but I don't think they're too far off here. My first year, immediately after replacing original tires with new EP442 Plus I was getting about 4.6 mi/kWh in early Fall and by "winter" (scare-quotes because Seattle rarely has winter) I was struggling to get 3.0 round-trip on the worst rain days. Between colder/stiffer tires, wet road and most importantly the need to run heat and AC to get good defogging with wet occupants of the vehicle and 100% relative humidity outside, it was a big surprise.
2013 SV no QC, built July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17: AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250
bar 12 lost 8/21/17
on 12/25/18: AHr = 55.5; SOH = 84.9 %; Hx = 80.3; ODO = 53,018

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:09 pm

iPlug wrote:The EPA says: "Fuel economy tests show that, in short-trip city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is about 12% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 22% for very short trips (3 to 4 miles)..."
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml

Anecdotal evidence on my part, but only 22% drop on very short trips (3 to 4 miles) with an ICE is far too optimistic.

My former ICE experience at these temps is about a 40% drop in mpg going 3-4 miles at cold soaked 20°F compared to 77°F.
That article has a list of things to do to mitigate the loss of energy economy ... and limiting forced hot air is not one of them, but limiting heat seating is.

I wonder if the same fools who wrote the AAA article wrote the EPA article.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:44 pm

It appears that AAA did not operate the EVs the way an owner would. They should have started with the car preheated while plugged in so that the first trip started with a full charge and warm car and then complete their short trip cycles. An EV is ideal for short trip use in cold weather as long as it has enough battery capacity to handle the daily driving needs because there is no wear from cold starts and no need to wait for oil pressure to build up before driving (the car is ready to drive as soon as it completes it boot up sequence).
The above (emphasis added) would be more true in 2011 than it is now. With many people acquiring an EV while NOT having researched or driven one for years, the typical EV driver is now largely a myth. Having been told that they have a 150+ range car, a newbie Leaf driver isn't going to just plug in and preheat as some sort of instinctual behavior. They will get in the car and drive it, recharging it when it is low on charge, or plugging it in every night so they aren't worried about charge. Preheating is a behavior developed to deal with EV range way below 100 miles. It isn't something that is already embedded in American driving culture.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

iPlug
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:58 am

Most of the new EVs sold today would do just fine in bitter cold with average commutes and letting the driver do whatever (s)he wants to do with heating settings.

For those with no second car ICE/PHEV and substantially longer than average commutes, it’s still mostly the Tesla brand to go to at the moment.

With the range of Teslas and now Niro EV, Kona EV, Leaf e+, and others coming on line, this is mattering less each year for EVs.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13464
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:41 am

Most of the new EVs sold today would do just fine in bitter cold with average commutes and letting the driver do whatever (s)he wants to do with heating settings.
Except for the ones who acquired their EV with range needs that approach the EPA range rating of the car. They, never having been told by the sales "people" about Winter range drop, are essentially screwed.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

iPlug
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:06 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Most of the new EVs sold today would do just fine in bitter cold with average commutes and letting the driver do whatever (s)he wants to do with heating settings.
Except for the ones who acquired their EV with range needs that approach the EPA range rating of the car. They, never having been told by the sales "people" about Winter range drop, are essentially screwed.
Right, that is why I pointed out "most" would not have winter commute issues.

NHTS's most recent data (2017) notes that the average (mean) commuting distance by private vehicle was 12.71 miles. Although they don't report it, we know the median commute distance is even lower as we know the mean average includes those skewing the distribution with unusually long commutes (these guys need a Tesla or Bolt at a minimum from the current BEV offerings).

So a Leaf EPA rated "151 miles" range by EPA, even if it lost 50% of its range during the winter would still have 3x the needed range for the mean average round trip commute with no work charging. Sure, we also have to account for degradation loss (would be smallest in places that have bitter cold) and emergency provisions among other things.

Agree, education at dealerships is important and lacking.


https://nhts.ornl.gov/assets/2017_nhts_ ... trends.pdf
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

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