cwerdna
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Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:31 am

^^^
Yeah, I got that bunch of papers when I got my Leaf but my dealer barely even mentioned it and I never signed it. I still have the folder and unsigned papers. I skimmed over it and (at the time) notice the mention of 55+ mph being "high speed". LOL! Anyone living in the LA area would totally LOL about that.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
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Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:39 am

cwerdna wrote:^^^
Yeah, I got that bunch of papers when I got my Leaf but my dealer barely even mentioned it and I never signed it. I still have the folder and unsigned papers. I skimmed over it and (at the time) notice the mention of 55+ mph being "high speed". LOL! Anyone living in the LA area would totally LOL about that.
oh i didnt get to keep mine which is why i insisted on taking a pix first. i guess i could have argued about signing it but after reading it for the first time about 30 mins ago; it says hardly anything concrete concerning the battery at all
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cwerdna
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Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:43 am

sgoyal wrote: My car is 2012 and has about 12K miles. All software updates have been done by the dealer, and tires are at 40 psi. In the recent cold weather (mornings have been 25-30 F), the range on my Nissan Leaf has dropped from 70 to about 45 miles. This is all non-freeway stop and go driving under 50 mph. I am barely getting 45 miles without using heat or the front defroster. When I use those features, the range drops to around 35-40. This makes the car practically unusable as I can't drop the kids to school, commute to work and back (47 mile RT) .
.
How are you determining "the range on my Nissan Leaf has dropped from 70 to about 45 miles"? Ditto about the other numbers of "45" and "35-40"? Are you depending on the useless GOM (aka guess-o-meter aka "distance to empty" in Nissan parlance_? How low is the battery getting in terms of the "fuel bars" before you're calling it "done"? Are you hitting either the LBW or VLBW warnings? What about turtle?

Are you charging to 100% or 80% or something else? Have you let the batteries balance?

I live in San Jose as well but my commute's short (12 miles each way) and I have free L2 charging at work, which is my primary place to charge. I also have a '13 w/the more efficient heat pump heater.

As for "without using heat or the front defroster", you might be using it w/o realizing it due to the HVAC quirks on the pre-MY13 Leafs (see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=6751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). On the '13, besides me having the more efficient heater, they added a dedicated heater on/off button.

And, I noticed in your earlier posts, you changed your tires. I wouldn't be surprised if they have higher rolling resistance and are cutting into your range.

I suggest you switch to LRR tires, get your alignment checked and pre-heat your car when plugged in AND use the heated seats and steering wheel to reduce demands from your power hungry heater. And, we REALLY need to know how you're determining range. Since you have no % SoC meter, you should get one of the "gid" meters out there or one of the Bluetooth dongles out there to use w/software that runs on Android. See below for examples of what I'm talking about:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=8527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14284" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 12 fuel bars don't give you enough granularity and the GOM is crap. Using gids out of how many gids at 100% charge is a decent proxy for % SoC. Gids at 100% charge is a decent indicator of how much available capacity you have/have lost.

Also, can you charge at work? Even charging at 120 volts at 8 or 9 hours should give you a decent amount of extra range.

Besides you changing the tires, have you made any other changes from stock (e.g. roof rack, flags, bike rack, etc.)? What is your m/kWh reading on the dash? (on the black and white display) Is it reset for every trip? If not, please do so. It put together a questionnaire long ago at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 21#p275421" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and now that I FINALLY have a Leaf.... maybe I'll go and revise it again.

(From http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... redirect=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I believe LBW warning will sound somewhere at 1 fuel bar left. I've seen LBW sound at % SoC 17 or 18 per the % SoC meter that's new to '13+ Leafs (you don't have it) and VLBW sound at 7 or 8 % SoC. Sorry, I wasn't watching the fuel bars and didn't care about the GOM but recall it changing to ---, I think at VLBW. I never took mine to turtle though.)

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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planet4ever
Posts: 4674
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Leaf Number: 1537
Location: Morgan Hill, CA, south of San Jose

Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:08 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:sorry in advance for the size of pix but not really readable in a smaller format. again this is 4 pages. the page you cant see doesnt have much on it but there is nothing here about 80% after 5 years or 70% after 10 years... in fact there is hardly anything of any real substance at all on this thing. glad i did not read it before signing it.
Yes, interesting rewrite indeed. The "Gradual loss" paragraph of the 2011 form I posted above said (after the first two sentences which are identical to the new version):
The rate of reduction cannot be assured, however, the battery is expected to maintain approximately 80% of its initial capacity after 5 years of normal operation and recommended care, but this is not guaranteed. This number may be higher or lower depending upon usage and care. Factors that will affect and may hasten the rate of capacity loss include, but are not limited to: exposure to very high ambient temperatures for extended periods of time, driving habits, vehicle usage, and charging habits (Quick Charging the vehicle more than once per day).
Yours says:
Although Nissan expects the great majority of vehicles to retain 9 or more bars of capacity through 5 years of normal use and mileage, the rate of reduction varies, and will depend upon your individual usage and operating environment. The rate of capacity loss will tend to be greater in the early part of your battery's life, but the rate of loss should decrease over time. Factors that will affect and may hasten the rate of capacity loss include, but are not limited to:
  • Sustained high battery temperatures (caused, for example, by exposure to very high ambient temperatures or extending highway driving with multiple quick charges)
  • Sustained high battery state of charge (caused, for example, by frequently charging to 100% state of charge and/or leaving the battery above 80% state of charge for long periods of time)
  • Higher than estimated annual mileage accumulation (such as more than 12,500 miles per year)
More detailed information about battery capacity loss and factors that can affect the rate of capacity loss is available in your Owner's Manual. For 5 years or 60.000 miles, whichever comes first, Nissan provides Lithium Battery Capacity Coverage under its New Electric Vehicle Limited Warranty for capacity loss below 9 bars of remaining capacity as shown by the vehicle's Battery Capacity Level Gauge.
Actually, except for the old "80% after 5 years" claim and "Quick Charging more than once per day" restriction, this section of the new version strikes me as considerably more specific than the old one. In particular, "more than 12,500 miles per year" is infinitely more specific than "vehicle usage" and should raise a red flag for any long distance commuter who really read it.

The other big change I spotted was the removal of the five specific range scenarios, yielding ranges of from 62 to 138 miles. But they did still claim those numbers, in a statement I consider ridiculous, saying, "When the battery is new, it is estimated that vehicle range with a fully charged battery under normal operation and various driving conditions will vary between 138 and 62 miles for the majority of people." Supposedly examples of some scenarios based on computer simulations can be found on http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but I couldn't find them there. So I'm calling it a nonsensical and unsubstantiated claim. Besides, why should they use "computer simulations" for new battery range when they've been selling the car for two or more years?

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:50 am

it may seem more specific to you but it does not to me. they added the capacity warranty since it was not part of the 2011 and they are understandably specific concerning that part. you can see the revision date is 12/2012
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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RegGuheert
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Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:12 am

planet4ever wrote:Yours says:
The rate of capacity loss will tend to be greater in the early part of your battery's life, but the rate of loss should decrease over time.
They are still claiming this and Stoaty's model makes this assumption for some losses. For calendar losses, I suspect that both types of losses are present and that at the very beginning of life, the capacity losses drop using an exponential function, but at some point a different loss mechanism that drops linearly dominates. In very hot climates (or merely hot climates), this linear drop seems to become dominant very early in the vehicle's life.

The point is that while I agree that the rate of battery capacity loss will be higher in the early part of the battery's life, I do not agree that the rate of loss will CONTINUE to decrease over time. At some point any linear capacity loss mechanisms should dominate over exponential loss mechanisms.

As an example, consider member "cyellen" who experienced the loss of bars one and two during the summer of 2012 and bars three and four during the summer of 2013:
Bar 1 to 2: 73 days and 1400 miles
Bar 3 to 4: 64 days and 1500 miles

Of course this is anecdotal data since it is just one car but it indicates that battery capacity loss in the summer of 2013 occurred at an almost identical rate to what was seen in 2012. This makes me believe that in Phoenix the calendar degradation rate may have already become linear by the time the first bar was lost. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing if this is true in other locations where the first bar may be lost much later. And of course the seasons confound any attempts to definitively pin down exactly what is happening.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

RonDawg
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Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:24 pm

planet4ever wrote:
sgoyal wrote:
planet4ever wrote:You signed a paper when you got the car, swearing that you had read Nissan's cautions, including an expectation of 20% loss in 5 years,
Hi Ray, I read the same thing in another post, however don't remember signing any such paper. I called the dealer where I bought the car, and they're not willing to share any such document with me. Would you mind sharing more details about this document? maybe even a scan? I would love to look at what Nissan is getting people to sign
You may not have signed that paper. I was responding to themotorman when I wrote that. According to his profile he got his car in June 2011. Yours says you got your car in November 2012. In 2011 Nissan was insistent that everyone had to sign before the deal was complete, but later they stopped doing that. They may not have required it for the 2012 models. I'll try to get around to scanning and posting the document later tonight. The one I signed was four pages long and titled 2011 LEAF CUSTOMER DISCLOSURE FORM.
I signed a similar form in January 2013, for my 2012 Leaf (2013's were not yet out).

Interesting to note the form posted by DaveinOlyWA has a revision date of 12/21/12 but already includes wording of the battery capacity warranty. IIRC that was not announced to us until well after I got my Leaf.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

Stoaty
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Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:39 pm

Although Nissan expects the great majority of vehicles to retain 9 or more bars of capacity through 5 years of normal use and mileage, the rate of reduction varies, and will depend upon your individual usage and operating environment. The rate of capacity loss will tend to be greater in the early part of your battery's life, but the rate of loss should decrease over time. Factors that will affect and may hasten the rate of capacity loss include, but are not limited to:
  • Sustained high battery temperatures (caused, for example, by exposure to very high ambient temperatures or extending highway driving with multiple quick charges)
  • Sustained high battery state of charge (caused, for example, by frequently charging to 100% state of charge and/or leaving the battery above 80% state of charge for long periods of time)
  • Higher than estimated annual mileage accumulation (such as more than 12,500 miles per year)
More detailed information about battery capacity loss and factors that can affect the rate of capacity loss is available in your Owner's Manual. For 5 years or 60.000 miles, whichever comes first, Nissan provides Lithium Battery Capacity Coverage under its New Electric Vehicle Limited Warranty for capacity loss below 9 bars of remaining capacity as shown by the vehicle's Battery Capacity Level Gauge.
In other words, they mentioned everything except the elephant in the room--the climate where you live/work. In addition, they do not specify how much loss each capacity bar represents, making this disclosure a non-disclosure except for those who don't need a disclosure because it has already been disclosed to them through other avenues. :o

PS Aside from very hot climates like Phoenix, I don't think there is any evidence that calendar loss doesn't slow down as Nissan predicts... but there isn't any evidence that it does, either. ;)
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

cwerdna
Posts: 9726
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:47 am

cwerdna wrote:
sgoyal wrote: My car is 2012 and has about 12K miles. All software updates have been done by the dealer, and tires are at 40 psi. In the recent cold weather (mornings have been 25-30 F), the range on my Nissan Leaf has dropped from 70 to about 45 miles. This is all non-freeway stop and go driving under 50 mph. I am barely getting 45 miles without using heat or the front defroster. When I use those features, the range drops to around 35-40. This makes the car practically unusable as I can't drop the kids to school, commute to work and back (47 mile RT) .
.
How are you determining "the range on my Nissan Leaf has dropped from 70 to about 45 miles"? Ditto about the other numbers of "45" and "35-40"? Are you depending on the useless GOM (aka guess-o-meter aka "distance to empty" in Nissan parlance_? How low is the battery getting in terms of the "fuel bars" before you're calling it "done"? Are you hitting either the LBW or VLBW warnings? What about turtle?

Are you charging to 100% or 80% or something else? Have you let the batteries balance?
...
Well? It's been more than a week and we haven't heard back.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

sgoyal
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:26 am
Delivery Date: 01 Nov 2012

Re: Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:23 am

My apologies for the late reply, we were out of town on vacation with limited web access. Please see my replies inline.
cwerdna wrote:
sgoyal wrote: My car is 2012 and has about 12K miles. All software updates have been done by the dealer, and tires are at 40 psi. In the recent cold weather (mornings have been 25-30 F), the range on my Nissan Leaf has dropped from 70 to about 45 miles. This is all non-freeway stop and go driving under 50 mph. I am barely getting 45 miles without using heat or the front defroster. When I use those features, the range drops to around 35-40. This makes the car practically unusable as I can't drop the kids to school, commute to work and back (47 mile RT) .
.
How are you determining "the range on my Nissan Leaf has dropped from 70 to about 45 miles"? Ditto about the other numbers of "45" and "35-40"? Are you depending on the useless GOM (aka guess-o-meter aka "distance to empty" in Nissan parlance_? How low is the battery getting in terms of the "fuel bars" before you're calling it "done"? Are you hitting either the LBW or VLBW warnings? What about turtle?

I'm getting my range numbers straight off the dashboard. Again, I feel that the average consumer isn't going to spend the time to figure out what the charging bars mean. Do they represent a linear or non-linear battery capacity etc. We can not dismiss the range on the dashboard as a guess-o-meter and let Nissan off the hook. Having said that I do pay attention to the bars, and on at least 3 occasions, I started out with 100% charge (all bars) and about 80 miles range showing, drove the car in conditions mentioned earlier and only had 5-6 bars left. Since I wrote my post, the dealer drove my car with 80% charge, drove the car 14 miles, and only had 5 bars left. Nissan still won't admit there is a problem.

Are you charging to 100% or 80% or something else? Have you let the batteries balance?

I always charge my car 100% every night, no exceptions. I don't know what 'batteries balance' means.

I live in San Jose as well but my commute's short (12 miles each way) and I have free L2 charging at work, which is my primary place to charge. I also have a '13 w/the more efficient heat pump heater.

I also have free L2 charging at work, but there aren't enough stations, so people are sort of fighting over them. I don't like to depend on the work chargers to make it back home. I bought the Leaf, thinking my 40-50 mile daily commute would be without any range anxiety what so ever, Its clearly not the case

As for "without using heat or the front defroster", you might be using it w/o realizing it due to the HVAC quirks on the pre-MY13 Leafs (see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=6751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). On the '13, besides me having the more efficient heater, they added a dedicated heater on/off button. Hmm… not sure about that, the car has been at the dealer twice for the range problem, they've never detected any problems with the HVAC system. There is a clear on/off button, so I'm certain it was off, not sure why Nissan would need another button. Again, Nissan can't expect people to think twice before using the heater to defrost the windshield etc. if the range drops significantly with heater usage, these issues need to be clearly explained to the consumer at the time of purchase.

And, I noticed in your earlier posts, you changed your tires. I wouldn't be surprised if they have higher rolling resistance and are cutting into your range.
Not sure where you saw that, but I'm using original stock tires. I didn't go back and check all my older posts however, its possible I may have written something confusing to make it look like I changed my tires.
I suggest you switch to LRR tires, get your alignment checked and pre-heat your car when plugged in AND use the heated seats and steering wheel to reduce demands from your power hungry heater. And, we REALLY need to know how you're determining range. Since you have no % SoC meter, you should get one of the "gid" meters out there or one of the Bluetooth dongles out there to use w/software that runs on Android. See below for examples of what I'm talking about:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=8527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14284" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 12 fuel bars don't give you enough granularity and the GOM is crap. Using gids out of how many gids at 100% charge is a decent proxy for % SoC. Gids at 100% charge is a decent indicator of how much available capacity you have/have lost.

As mentioned earlier, I'm looking at my range on the dash. I have not taken the time yet to use any other methods you mention. I find it surprising that we're putting bandaids on a bad design and covering it up for Nissan by inventing creative ways to measure the range.. If their range meter is crap, then shouldn't we get together and complain to Nissan? For the average non-tech user, this car does not deliver. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the helpful links, but I look at the Leaf as a half baked car that was pushed to consumers without any transparency or responsibility from Nissan, and they shouldn't get away with it. I've worked for Toyota for 6 years and a major Bay Area networking company for another 14, all on the New product development manufacturing groups, and can't imagine a product like this making it out the door.

Also, can you charge at work? Even charging at 120 volts at 8 or 9 hours should give you a decent amount of extra range.

Besides you changing the tires, have you made any other changes from stock (e.g. roof rack, flags, bike rack, etc.)? What is your m/kWh reading on the dash? (on the black and white display) Is it reset for every trip? If not, please do so. It put together a questionnaire long ago at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 21#p275421" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and now that I FINALLY have a Leaf.... maybe I'll go and revise it again.

(From http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... redirect=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, I believe LBW warning will sound somewhere at 1 fuel bar left. I've seen LBW sound at % SoC 17 or 18 per the % SoC meter that's new to '13+ Leafs (you don't have it) and VLBW sound at 7 or 8 % SoC. Sorry, I wasn't watching the fuel bars and didn't care about the GOM but recall it changing to ---, I think at VLBW. I never took mine to turtle though.)

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