DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:55 pm

Forum,

When looking at the Kia Niro vs. H. Kona vs. Nissan Leaf + SV all are about the same weight, 3,800 Lbs. (give or take 40 lbs). The Aerodynamic coefficient is the same for Leaf and Niro, and much higher for the Kona.

Kia/Hyundai are both at 64kWh, so the 2 kWh difference would account for about 8 miles of range difference.

What else is driving the range difference in range of 258, 239, and 215 for the Leaf SV.

The 43 mile difference in range between Kona and Leaf feels high given how similar the other aspects are for the 2 cars, especially given the .32 drag coe. vs. .29 for Leaf (and niro).

Inverter, tires, ...what else is driving the difference?
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13294
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:35 pm

It's possible, that in upping the Leaf Plus inverter power output again, to push even more power through what is essentially the same motor that was putting out 108HP and now puts out 200+HP, some efficiency was lost.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

RonDawg
Posts: 3039
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:01 pm

Despite the Leaf "looking" aerodynamic, it actually seems LESS so than my much boxier looking eGolf. The reason I say that is at freeway speeds, the eGolf seems to use a bit less battery. I easily get 4-4.5 miles/kWH in the eGolf whereas with the Leaf I had to work to keep it above 4.

Both cars come from the factory with the Bridgestone Ecopia tires, though the ones that came with the eGolf seem to be MUCH better quality than the OEM Nissan version.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

iPlug
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:06 pm

What pre-tax prices were you offered on these vehicles?

We cross shopped the same vehicles as well. Dealers have added thousands to MSRP for Niro EV and Kona EV. Did not ask for a Leaf e-plus quote as were looking at the 2019 40kWh SV instead.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

lorenfb
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:16 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:It's possible, that in upping the Leaf Plus inverter power output again, to push even more power through what is essentially the same motor that was putting out 108HP and now puts out 200+HP, some efficiency was lost.

Are you guessing, i.e. same motor or you do you have a source?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:05 pm

Leaf is already available nation wide for thousands under MSRP and then add the federal rebate. (State ones to for those in lucky states)

I spoke our Kia dealers and it doesn’t sound they are getting the Niro ev this year, so went with the Leaf Plus SV with Tech and Weather package.

Admittedly it’s about the same as the entry level Tesla 3 with no options. (Minus the fed rebates on both sides). The base 3 is a 50Kwh battery.

I am wagering with some small mods and 40psi, leaf + mileage will beat the sticker.
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:15 pm

lorenfb wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:It's possible, that in upping the Leaf Plus inverter power output again, to push even more power through what is essentially the same motor that was putting out 108HP and now puts out 200+HP, some efficiency was lost.

Are you guessing, i.e. same motor or you do you have a source?
Cwerdna looked it up and posted it during our previous "discussion." The 2013+, 2018 and ePlus Leafs all use the EM57. I just verified it again.

viewtopic.php?f=55&p=552295
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:38 pm

Yeah, I saw that they all use the same from the other thread.

Still curious about the mileage gap. I wonder where else there could be inefficiencies compared to Kia?

The Michelin tires appear to have a low rolling resistance.
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

CTang
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:28 pm

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:36 pm

According to this article, the Kona EV has a Cd of 0.29

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/10/th ... crossover/

It's hard to find the frontal area for the Leaf and Kona, but I'm guessing the Kona has a smaller frontal area so the resulting drag (Cd*A) is lower than the Leaf.

lorenfb
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:29 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:It's possible, that in upping the Leaf Plus inverter power output again, to push even more power through what is essentially the same motor that was putting out 108HP and now puts out 200+HP, some efficiency was lost.

Are you guessing, i.e. same motor or you do you have a source?
Cwerdna looked it up and posted it during our previous "discussion." The 2013+, 2018 and ePlus Leafs all use the EM57. I just verified it again.

viewtopic.php?f=55&p=552295
Then it's very doubtful that Nissan would design a motor that would have a noticeable loss of efficiency at higher power outputs.
Most likely the motor was initially designed for future higher outputs, as is typically done in key design areas, but was limited
to lower power outputs via the motor controller (inverter/ECU/module/whatever) when used with lower capacity batteries.
Without any very actual/actuate efficiency logging data, what the repeatability of the efficiency tests were, and how Nissan
setup the different models for the EPA tests and Nissan's desired results, one really is guessing as to the source of the
apparent differences.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

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