sthbeach
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:49 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Aug 2019
Leaf Number: 312576

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:05 am

120 kph is real world driving on the 401 in Canada. The truckers all drive between 105-110 and it's safe to say that less than 5% of the rest of the vehicles in the highway drive slower than the trucks.
Please.......any Canadians here, please chime in! LOL

sthbeach
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:49 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Aug 2019
Leaf Number: 312576

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:08 am

As a matter of fact, it's a well known understanding that most Canadians that travel the 401 can safely set their cruise control to 122 kph and stay under the radar.

SageBrush
Posts: 4734
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:42 am

sthbeach wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:58 am
SageBrush wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:04 am
sthbeach wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:31 am
Also, I believe my Leaf suffers from Rapidgate and needs a software update because last week was the long weekend and I did a trip to cottage country. I planned my route so I would have to quick charge each way for about 20-30 minutes......anyway the 50kw DC quick charger I hit on the way up and back charged at less than 20 kw/h both times and it took me forever!
What does kw/h mean ?
Sorry, I meant it didn't was intaking 20 kilowatts max.
Ah, understood.

The first DC charge on a trip can be throttled due to a *cold* battery. Bjorn Nyland has coined this "cold-gate." :cry:
It is actually a common and well described phenomenon. So far as I know only Tesla has taken steps to mitigate this by pre-warming the battery when the car is told it is heading to a SuperCharger.

In a LEAF you get throttled on both sides: The first DC charge of the day the battery is too cold to take 200 Amps, but by the end of the session the battery is too hot to take 200 Amps at subsequent charging stops during the day. You might be able to game the first charge by watching LeafSpy and restarting the charge when the battery temp is ~ 30C or so. Bjorn has also showed in his youtube videos that a LEAF battery will not cool down when driven at 120 kph speeds, but it will at ~ 100 kph and below. So if the ambient is not too high (perhaps under 30C) you can try driving you usual 120 kph the first part of the trip and then slowing down to 100 kph for the 30 minutes before your next charge. I don't remember exactly, but the battery has to be below ~ 42C to not be heat throttled.

Do these games sound a bit silly to you ? Welcome to the LEAF life and no thermal control. And keep in mind that you might be able to game the battery to charge faster but the battery reaches 50+C during these long drives with DC fast charging. Degradation is going to be pronounced.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
jlv
Moderator
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:43 am

css28 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:14 am
It's an alternate convention for kWh. I see it a lot on UK discussion forums. I agree it is confusing, if you interpret the slash as a division symbol.
That's even more incorrect. The poster meant he was charging at a rate of 20kW. 20 kWh is not a rate.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18) 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%
Tesla S 75D (3/17)
Tesla X 100D (12/18)
82K 100% BEV miles since '14
ICE free since '18

css28
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:14 pm
Delivery Date: 02 Aug 2019
Location: Bloomfield Twp, Michigan

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:41 am

jlv wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:43 am
css28 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:14 am
It's an alternate convention for kWh. I see it a lot on UK discussion forums. I agree it is confusing, if you interpret the slash as a division symbol.
That's even more incorrect. The poster meant he was charging at a rate of 20kW. 20 kWh is not a rate.
Right you are.

I'm tempted to start a campaign for using Megajoules in place of kWh for energy units going forward. 1 kWh = 3.6 MJ. Easy peasey.

Watt hours are kind of contrived--multiplying an energy rate by time to get an energy unit through the back door. Look at all the pain it causes on mynissanleaf.com alone!
- Chris
----------
2017 SV, purchased 8/10/19, Coulis red

powersurge
Posts: 1464
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 pm

Getting back to the original topic... Sounds like those in Canada push their cars to the limits with the long distances they need to travel and the cold weather..

I agree that the OP's complaints are not the function of the car being a problem. The electric car is not an equivalent to the gasoline car. Gas cars are much more powerful than in the past, and we think nothing of pushing the speed to 70, 80, and more.

The EV, however is subject to the limits of wind resistance, which is a geometric function, with the car needing increasingly more energy to move the car every mile per hour more than a certain amount.

The OP should try to accept that he DOES NOT HAVE TO TRAVEL At 75 MILES PER HOUR with an EV. Let the traffic respect your wish to travel the speed that you want..... You will get much better results at 55-60 MPH, and running the heat at a constant, modest amount. The Leaf will not yield to your will, you must yield to the laws of physics. As I understand it, wind resistance increases with the X (squared), where X is speed.... So compared to a 50 mph car, at 60 MPH, the resistance is 150%, at 70, the resistance is 196%, and at 80 it is 256% of that needed at 50 MPH..

css28
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:14 pm
Delivery Date: 02 Aug 2019
Location: Bloomfield Twp, Michigan

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:54 pm

powersurge wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 pm
Getting back to the original topic... Sounds like those in Canada push their cars to the limits with the long distances they need to travel and the cold weather..
...

The OP should try to accept that he DOES NOT HAVE TO TRAVEL At 75 MILES PER HOUR with an EV. Let the traffic respect your wish to travel the speed that you want..... You will get much better results at 55-60 MPH, and running the heat at a constant, modest amount. The Leaf will not yield to your will, you must yield to the laws of physics. As I understand it, wind resistance increases with the X (squared), where X is speed.... So compared to a 50 mph car, at 60 MPH, the resistance is 150%, at 70, the resistance is 196%, and at 80 it is 256% of that needed at 50 MPH..
On the other hand, he *is* talking about the 401...
- Chris
----------
2017 SV, purchased 8/10/19, Coulis red

SageBrush
Posts: 4734
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:11 pm

powersurge wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 pm
As I understand it, wind resistance increases with the X (squared), where X is speed.... So compared to a 50 mph car, at 60 MPH, the resistance is 150%, at 70, the resistance is 196%, and at 80 it is 256% of that needed at 50 MPH..
.
That is true for air drag, but it is not true for the energy consumption increase per distance in a car as the speed increases.

Time for a review of High School Physics, Mr. "scientist."
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

sthbeach
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:49 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Aug 2019
Leaf Number: 312576

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:17 pm

powersurge wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:01 pm
Getting back to the original topic... Sounds like those in Canada push their cars to the limits with the long distances they need to travel and the cold weather..

I agree that the OP's complaints are not the function of the car being a problem. The electric car is not an equivalent to the gasoline car. Gas cars are much more powerful than in the past, and we think nothing of pushing the speed to 70, 80, and more.

The EV, however is subject to the limits of wind resistance, which is a geometric function, with the car needing increasingly more energy to move the car every mile per hour more than a certain amount.

The OP should try to accept that he DOES NOT HAVE TO TRAVEL At 75 MILES PER HOUR with an EV. Let the traffic respect your wish to travel the speed that you want..... You will get much better results at 55-60 MPH, and running the heat at a constant, modest amount. The Leaf will not yield to your will, you must yield to the laws of physics. As I understand it, wind resistance increases with the X (squared), where X is speed.... So compared to a 50 mph car, at 60 MPH, the resistance is 150%, at 70, the resistance is 196%, and at 80 it is 256% of that needed at 50 MPH..
As the OP of this thread, my main point I was trying to get across is that as much as the EV homers want the good ole gas folks to understand the technology and the infrastructure and so on, facts are facts and the technology is quite there yet for most people on an affordable level. I think I read it on another thread in here that pretty much sums up all the scientific talk and mumbo jumbo about range and stats and the guy said, the best way to buy an EV is take your daily commute and double it and choose the EV based on that. So the bottom line is that if my average daily commute is 160kms I should buy an EV with a range of at least 320 kms (200 miles). And that's the truth! Then there is no range anxiety, no discussion of stats, no multiple charging in one day and most importantly the longevity of vehicle because then I could always run it between 20-80% and the batteries would last forever!

Yes, of course I could slow down and drive under the highway speed limit as powesurge suggests or just suck it up and multiple charge in one day........BUT I DON'T WANT TO COMPROMISE! Especially when I have to shell out that kind of money. I would need to move up to a Chevy Bolt or a Tesla Model 3 and then every day I go out to my driveway I will think of the money I spent on the car in front of me and know that I could be looking at a convertible BMW 3 series.

Right now EV's are a great choice for anyone with under a 50 mile commute as you can pick up just about any used EV for cheap to do the trick.
Right now EV's are a good choice for anyone with under 80 mile commute with little to no compromise and a fair amount of choice out there.
Right now EV's are a bad choice for anyone with over a 100 mile commute as there is limited selection and they are still very pricey.
By 2021 there is supposed to be 100 full EV cars available from all the carmakers, hopefully that will be the big tipping point in technology and cost.

SageBrush
Posts: 4734
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: My 2018 Leaf is not what I expected

Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:09 pm

I agree with a lot that you say.
sthbeach wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:17 pm
Right now EV's are a bad choice for anyone with over a 100 mile commute as there is limited selection and they are still very pricey.
By 2021 there is supposed to be 100 full EV cars available from all the carmakers, hopefully that will be the big tipping point in technology and cost.
.
The money story works out when you figure in the savings in fuel. Electricity can be cheap and dirty, rarely cheap and clean, and in some places clean but expensive. Depending where you live the answer is usually home solar (PV.)

EV + PV = the best choice today, hands down
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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