DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14470
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 11:28 am

I am pretty sure its the charging overhead from the cooling system that is accounting for the difference.

When I thought I was getting better charging performance it was diego not charging to 100% any more which I did daily for the first 6 weeks. I had my Leaf.

Since that time I am only timing the charge to get around 90% charge. That has increased my efficiency to around 77%. I take the difference to be caused by charging at max current without the trickle down that happens near the end of charging.


So basically the faster you charge the less overhead you have to deal with
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Ingineer
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:09 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 6969
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 12:35 pm

FYI, the stock (unmodified) Nissan/Panasonic EVSE has around 8-9 watts of overhead when in charge mode. Not a lot compared to the car's overhead, but still.

What's the Kill-A-Watt report power factor is when charging at 120v? This could also be a source of error, as kVA != kW.

-Phil
Easily Learn Electricity HERE! - - - - Website: http://evseupgrade.com/[/size] - - - - Like us on Facebook: EVSE Upgrade

GroundLoop
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Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 1:20 pm

I checked the Power Factor of the Blink 240v unit, and it's a consistent 99% through the Bulk phase of charging. I haven't checked the tail end.

bowthom
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 307
Location: Portland Oregon

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 1:36 pm

Hello,
the Leaf manual says the charger has power factor correction built in. I'm getting consistant 87% with the blink and 89% with the mini evse (w/mod).
Reserv Apr 20 - Ord Aug 31
Red - ETEC trim
BLINK inst 3/14/11 (rev 2.1.2B)
P1213 4/29/11 - Charger repl 6/8/11
P1273 2/15/12 - P32270 10/2/13
TCU upgrd 2/15/17
-1bar 11/14 -2bars 6/16 -3bars 7/18 -4bars 9/19

Deliver 2/23/11 - 75k+ mi

GroundLoop
Posts: 1725
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 1:47 pm

bowthom wrote:Hello,
the Leaf manual says the charger has power factor correction built in. I'm getting consistant 87% with the blink and 89% with the mini evse (w/mod).
How are you measuring the Blink+LEAF power factor? I'm querying the utility meter, and it's constant at 98-99%. I have a power phasor diagram I can post.

Further, I wouldn't expect the EVSE to have any influence on the Power Factor -- this is going to come from the Leaf's own charger alone.

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Ingineer
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:09 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 6969
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 1:55 pm

GroundLoop wrote:
bowthom wrote:Hello,
the Leaf manual says the charger has power factor correction built in. I'm getting consistant 87% with the blink and 89% with the mini evse (w/mod).
How are you measuring the Blink+LEAF power factor? I'm querying the utility meter, and it's constant at 98-99%. I have a power phasor diagram I can post.

Further, I wouldn't expect the EVSE to have any influence on the Power Factor -- this is going to come from the Leaf's own charger alone.
This isn't always true, as the Blink (and my upgrade) EVSE includes an on-board switch-mode power supply. These are notoriously bad, which is why large ones are usually PFC. I am not surprised that the Blink is worse!

If the total PF is indeed as low as .87, then that means right off the top 16a in on 240v (3.84kVA) = 3.34kW usable, which is strangely close to what Nissan claims is the output of their charger is at 16a input.

-Phil
Easily Learn Electricity HERE! - - - - Website: http://evseupgrade.com/[/size] - - - - Like us on Facebook: EVSE Upgrade

GroundLoop
Posts: 1725
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 2:17 pm

You mean the power supply consumption while the Blink is idle or charging?

It seems like the LEAF's charger would totally dwarf whatever nasty power factor is used by the 13W Blink internals, no?

I will record it again when I charge tonight, and collect some diagrams. There's something amiss here. I haven't seen anything to indicate the power factor during bulk charging is below 98%.

User avatar
Ingineer
Posts: 2741
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:09 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 6969
Location: Berkeley, California
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 2:34 pm

GroundLoop wrote:You mean the power supply consumption while the Blink is idle or charging?

It seems like the LEAF's charger would totally dwarf whatever nasty power factor is used by the 13W Blink internals, no?

I will record it again when I charge tonight, and collect some diagrams. There's something amiss here. I haven't seen anything to indicate the power factor during bulk charging is below 98%.
I too expected the overall PF to be better on a PFC supply. I mean while charging, or course. Yes, you are correct, even if horrible on the EVSE base load it should not be significant in the total.

-Phil
Easily Learn Electricity HERE! - - - - Website: http://evseupgrade.com/[/size] - - - - Like us on Facebook: EVSE Upgrade

bowthom
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 307
Location: Portland Oregon

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Fri May 20, 2011 7:33 pm

Hello,
I was just commenting on the leaf charger PF having just perused that section in the service manual.

The 87% and 89% figures are the "wall to wheels" efficiency. Typically, when my Leaf is working properly, the carwings reported kWh usage is 87% of the Blink kWh charging amount.

When my leaf is having a bad day, that can change by 40%.

I didn't mean to confuse, I posted two random thoughts together. :oops:
Reserv Apr 20 - Ord Aug 31
Red - ETEC trim
BLINK inst 3/14/11 (rev 2.1.2B)
P1213 4/29/11 - Charger repl 6/8/11
P1273 2/15/12 - P32270 10/2/13
TCU upgrd 2/15/17
-1bar 11/14 -2bars 6/16 -3bars 7/18 -4bars 9/19

Deliver 2/23/11 - 75k+ mi

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14470
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Sat May 21, 2011 1:14 pm

Ingineer wrote:FYI, the stock (unmodified) Nissan/Panasonic EVSE has around 8-9 watts of overhead when in charge mode. Not a lot compared to the car's overhead, but still.

What's the Kill-A-Watt report power factor is when charging at 120v? This could also be a source of error, as kVA != kW.

-Phil
it ranges from 98-100%
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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