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gbarry42
Posts: 888
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:48 pm
Delivery Date: 06 May 2011
Location: Moonlight Beach

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Mon May 30, 2011 2:07 pm

SparkyEV wrote:I thought I read [...]
planet4ever wrote:It may be 24 kWh total, or maybe 27 kWh, or even more. It may be 24 kWh usable, or as little as 21 kWh, or possibly even less. There could be a 15% protective cushion, or maybe 20%, or only 10% [...]
Hopefully, what you take away from Ray's answer (thanks for doing that for me) is that you probably did read that, but you may also see this other theory, as well as this other theory, and so on, until you've read all the different theories. And we still just do not know, nor can we prove any of them.
And there goes the first capacity bar! At 24,000 mi on 9/9/2013.
Second bar at 30,500 mi on 2/7/2015.

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planet4ever
Posts: 4674
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:53 pm
Delivery Date: 02 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1537
Location: Morgan Hill, CA, south of San Jose

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Mon May 30, 2011 3:56 pm

jwatte wrote:What I don't understand is that the rate goes all the way up to Tier 5 for the E-9B. Peak use at Tier 5 is $0.57 with that rate!
Tier 5 peak use with E-9b? This does not compute. Are you planning to put more than 30 kWh/day into your LEAF between the hours of 2 PM and 9 PM? Actually, even if you did (not that it is possible), your net rate would be somewhat lower than that. I'm not sure what your baseline is, but let's assume it is 10 kWh/day.

$3.91 for the first 13 kWh
$3.19 for the next 7 kWh
$5.65 for the last 10 kWh
------
$12.75 for 30 kWh, or $0.425/kWh

But of course the whole point of using E9 is to charge the car at night when the rates are low. Under much more reasonable assumptions of a timed charge from midnight to 7 AM at 3.84 kW (trailing off at the end) you can charge from 'low battery' to full all in the off-peak period, using maybe 23 kWh.
$0.78 for the first 13 kWh
$1.50 for the next 7 kWh
$0.97 for the last 3 kWh
-------
$3.25 for 23 kWh, or $0.14/kWh

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

SparkyEV
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 4:15 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3651
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Tue May 31, 2011 9:39 am

jwatte wrote:
SparkyEV wrote: Can't you switch to PG&E's TOU E-9 rates for EVs? It's less than $0.06/kWh for off-peak usage.
That would not save me money, because the peak time draw (which is when AC and kid computers run and whatnot) would be billed at a higher rate.
I'm looking at E-9B rates, with the option of a second meter (although the installation charge for that -- ouch!)
What I don't understand is that the rate goes all the way up to Tier 5 for the E-9B. Peak use at Tier 5 is $0.57 with that rate!

Given the $4k install for a second meter, though, I probably should put in a kilowatt or two of PV solar instead -- would probably pay itself back sooner :-)
I'm still waiting for a callback from PG&E for more details, but here's what they told me. Historically, my E-1 rates have averaged around $200/month. Most months we dip into tier 4 and occasionally tier 5. PG&E tells me that if I add the LEAF but stick with E-1, my monthly average will jump to $420/mo. If I switch to E-9A, that drops to $290/mo (roughly $0.15/kWh to charge the car, depending on their assumptions). Switching to E9-B drops it further to $250/mo. They also told me that it's $250 for the second meter plus whatever an electrician charges me to install a second panel (I haven't gotten a quote for that yet, but PG&E said it "could be as high as $1000"). Where did you get the $4k number? If you haven't done it already, I would recommend calling PG&E to have them run the numbers. All I had to tell them was that I was getting a LEAF and how many miles I planned to drive a day. They combined that with my historical usage data to come up with these numbers. I plan to do this analysis myself once I understand how the allocation works with E-9A. If you have called them, I'd be interested to hear what they told you.

I'm also looking at adding a 3.75 kW (AC) PV system in the next couple of months to go greener.
2016 SV (30kWh)
@500 miles: AHr=79.88 SOH=100 Hx=95.3, GIDs=363
Was: 2011 Blue Ocean Leaf SL. Retired with 62k miles and 3 bars down.
My daily commute: 55 miles round trip, 92% freeway @ 55-60MPH, 5.0 miles/kWh average (per the dash)

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hill
Gold Member
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:05 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 0659
Location: Lake Forest, CA

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Tue May 31, 2011 9:57 am

evnow wrote:
JessEV wrote:After 8.5 hours of charging on L1, I have recovered 7 bars. At 1.33kWh * 8.5 I got 11.3kWh from the wall.
You can't assume 1.33 kWh either - you should measure using a kill-a-watt to get true energy going in at the wall.

Look at this sticky ... this gives the range of each bar. Top bar was 4% and rest 8%. But this is before the firmware upgrade. It would have changed to become more nonlinear now.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2390
Might that not be due to how soon after hitting 100% you jump in and drive? Seems I saw somewhere you can loose as much as 5% at a full charge, turning on how long you wait to jump in and drive. If true, that might be why some find a lack of full usable kwh's.
Last edited by hill on Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14470
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Tue May 31, 2011 11:41 am

hill wrote:
evnow wrote:
JessEV wrote:After 8.5 hours of charging on L1, I have recovered 7 bars. At 1.33kWh * 8.5 I got 11.3kWh from the wall.
You can't assume 1.33 kWh either - you should measure using a kill-a-watt to get true energy going in at the wall.

Look at this sticky ... this gives the range of each bar. Top bar was 4% and rest 8%. But this is before the firmware upgrade. It would have changed to become more nonlinear now.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2390
Might that not be due to how soon after hitting 100% you jump in and drive? Seems I saw somewhere you cal loose as much as 5% at a full charge, turning on how long you wait to jump in and drive. If true, that might be why some find a lack of full usable kwh's.

charge bleed off is minimal as long as its not more than a day or so. when charging cycle is done, the water, etc all turns off.

now there was the guy who trucked his Leaf to FL who had about 10% charge bleed off in like 3 days, but after that it was pretty static and it was nearly 2 weeks in transit i believe
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 3500.3 mi, 96.95% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11480
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Leaf Miles / KWh is Wrong Or Usable bat. cap. is not 24

Tue May 31, 2011 1:01 pm

hill wrote:Might that not be due to how soon after hitting 100% you jump in and drive? Seems I saw somewhere you cal loose as much as 5% at a full charge, turning on how long you wait to jump in and drive. If true, that might be why some find a lack of full usable kwh's.
Well, the % quoted are from the user manual - so that should be after proper charging with time for equalization.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

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