Worse milage than EV1 with Lead-Acid?

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Stunt822

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 9, 2010
Messages
101
was looking over some numbers on conversions and such, and wanted to see how much did technology improve in face of Nissan Leaf. And couldn't.

EV1 was getting 100 miles on 18.7kWh pack of LEAD which as we know - can't be drained fully, lucky to get 70%. So 130W/mile or 7.4 miles per kWh. And i haven't seen such milage on Leaf reported or forecasted.

I never drove EV1, so may not be comparing apples to apples. Or am I?
 
I don't know many details of EV1, but I think it is comparing apples and oranges... different battery, lower weight and better drag coefficient on EV1...
 
Stunt822 said:
was looking over some numbers on conversions and such, and wanted to see how much did technology improve in face of Nissan Leaf. And couldn't.

EV1 was getting 100 miles on 18.7kWh pack of LEAD which as we know - can't be drained fully, lucky to get 70%. So 130W/mile or 7.4 miles per kWh. And i haven't seen such milage on Leaf reported or forecasted.

I never drove EV1, so may not be comparing apples to apples. Or am I?

And you also have to realize that the mileage estimates on EV's during that time period (and I had a couple during that time period and can attest to that) were all estimated at a constant 45mph, no stop and starts, A/C usage, freeway speeds, etc.
 
Stunt822 said:
was looking over some numbers on conversions and such, and wanted to see how much did technology improve in face of Nissan Leaf. And couldn't.

EV1 was getting 100 miles on 18.7kWh pack of LEAD which as we know - can't be drained fully, lucky to get 70%. So 130W/mile or 7.4 miles per kWh. And i haven't seen such milage on Leaf reported or forecasted.

I never drove EV1, so may not be comparing apples to apples. Or am I?
How fast does the EV1 go?
The EV1 travels from 0 to 30 mph in under 3 seconds and 0 to 60 in under 9 seconds. A modified EV1 prototype set an electric vehicle land speed record in 1994 at 183 mph.

How far will it go?
Expected real-world range is 55-95 miles for the high-capacity lead-acid EV1. Expected real-world range for the optional nickel-metal hydride EV1 is 75-130 miles. However, actual mileage and range will vary as a result of driving style, terrain, temperature and accessory usage, particularly as affected by ambient temperature and the use of heating and air conditioning.

How long does it take to charge?
High-capacity lead acid: At 70ºF, it takes up to 2-1/2 hours to charge from 20% to 80% state of charge using a 220-volt (6.6kW) charger. Approximately 5-1/2 to 6 hours are required for a charge from zero to complete using a 220-volt charger. Nickel-metal hydride: At 70ºF, it takes 6 to 8 hours for a charge from zero to complete.
http://www.evchargernews.com/CD-A/gm_ev1_web_site/faq/faq.htm
 
Stunt822 said:
EV1 was getting 100 miles on 18.7kWh pack of LEAD which as we know - can't be drained fully, lucky to get 70%. So 130W/mile or 7.4 miles per kWh. And i haven't seen such milage on Leaf reported or forecasted.
I had an EV1 from 1994-1997. The real world range was about 65 miles with the driving I did - mostly city around 45mph. Occasionally I'd visit my parents that lived 35 miles away. I would drive there and recharge with the 110V charger, which would add about 6 miles of range and then drive back. About 10 miles of the trip was at 75mph on the highway.

Alex
 
The GM EV1 Lead Acid was pretty lucky to ever get 75 miles. Normal dirvers were probably getting something around 50 - 60 miles. If you do the math based on pack capacity of 18.7 kWh and assume 4 miles / kWh, which is pretty good (that's better than a typical driver, though a seasoned EV driver kepping speeds below 55 might get 5 miles / kWh), that would be a range of 72 miles, but full discharges like that would quickly hurt the pack. And the pack wouldn't last for 8 years like the LEAF pack.

The NiMH EV1 was 75-130. I actually got 137 miles out of mine in a trip from San Jose to Sacramento. In order to achieve that I drove it slowly, mostly around 55 mph, but there were times when the road was empty of other traffic and I could drop it down to 45 mph.

The EV1 was fun. It was a little rocket ship at the time. Till those bastards at GM took it from me and crushed because they only leased the Gen II in Northern CA for three years and refused to renew despite people sending them substantial checks.

BatteryThe Gen I EV1 models, released in 1996, used lead-acid batteries, and weighed in at 3,086 pounds (1,400 kg). The first batch of batteries were provided by GM's Delphi branch; these were rated at 53 amp-hours at 312 volts (16.5 kWh), and provided the initially range of 60 miles per charge. Gen II cars, released in 1999, used a new batch of lead-acid batteries provided by Panasonic; some Gen I cars were retrofitted with this battery pack. The Japanese batteries were rated at 60 amp-hours (18.7 kWh) at 312 volts, and increased the EV1's range to 100 miles. Soon after the rollout of the second generation cars, the originally intended nickel metal hydride (NiMH) "Ovonic" battery pack, which reduced the car's curb weight to 2,908 pounds (1,319 kg) entered production; this pack was also retrofitted to earlier cars (both battery pack designs were led and invented by John E. Waters under the Delco Remy organization). The NiMH batteries, rated at 77 amp-hours (26.4 kWh) at 343 volts, gave the cars a range of 160 miles (120 to 240 km) per charge, more than twice what the original Gen I cars could muster.

It took the NiMH-equipped cars as much as eight hours for the cars to charge to full capacity (though an 80% charge could be achieved in between one and three hours). The Panasonic battery pack consisted of twenty-six 12 volt, 60 amp-hour lead-acid batteries holding 67.4 megajoules (18.7 kWh) of energy. The NiMH packs contained twenty-six 13.2 volt, 77 Ah nickel-metal hydride batteries which held 95.1 megajoules (26.4 kWh) of energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

I've got my RAV4 EVnow, which I'll keep when I get the LEAF. It charges level 2 at 6.6 kW (25 miles per hour of charging - the LEAF 3.3 kW is 12.5 miles per hour of charging). I'll get around 70 miles at 70 - 75 mph, at 55mph I can stretch it close to 100. In 46,000 miles over 10 years, I've lost 5 - 10 miles of the original range. It's a great car!
[Toyota RAV4 EV...] range of 100 to 120 miles (160 to 190 km), 27 kWh NiMH battery pack
Some RAV4 EVs have achieved over 150,000 miles (240,000 km) on the original battery pack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rav4_ev
 
Stunt822 said:
was looking over some numbers on conversions and such, and wanted to see how much did technology improve in face of Nissan Leaf. And couldn't.

EV1 was getting 100 miles on 18.7kWh pack of LEAD which as we know - can't be drained fully, lucky to get 70%. So 130W/mile or 7.4 miles per kWh. And i haven't seen such milage on Leaf reported or forecasted.

I never drove EV1, so may not be comparing apples to apples. Or am I?

the Lead EV1 was not rated at 100 miles. the NiMH was.

also the EV1 is smaller, a two seater, etc. i did not expect the Leaf to get 4½ MPK from the wall like my Zenn but then again, my Zenn weighed 1200 lbs with batteries.

the Leaf should not be as efficient. the only way to do that is to lose 50% of its weight...aint gonna happen
 
Stunt822 said:
EV1 was getting 100 miles on 18.7kWh pack of LEAD which as we know - can't be drained fully, lucky to get 70%. So 130W/mile or 7.4 miles per kWh. And i haven't seen such milage on Leaf reported or forecasted.
I'd want to know all the details about anyone getting 7.4 miles per kWh (135 Wh/mile). The miles / kWh varies a little vehicle to vehicle, but I see numbers - EV1, RAV4 EV and the LEAF that are in the 3 miles / kWh (333 Wh/mile) for normal driving and some highway at 70 mph. An EV driver can get 4 miles / kWh (250 Wh/mile) doing coast downs, using space between the cars to absorb traffic variations instead of slamming the brakes, and keeping freeway speeds under 65 or 60mph.

Getting to 5 miles / kWh (200 Wh/mile) takes a good EV driver some effort. I can achieve that in my RAV4 EV. We're seeing some reports of 6 miles / kWh (167 Wh/mile) in the LEAF which is extremely good. There's much more variation due to the driver's style and skill than due to the vehicle - at least when looking at EV1, RAV4 EV and the LEAF. A Ford Excursion EV, if one existed would have much worse numbers because of it's weight and probably aerodynamics. Though I thought the aerodynamics on the RAV4 EV would be a big range reducer, but I thunk wrong! The RAV4 EV is not as aerodynamic as the EV1 (CD .17) but I could still get 100 miles out of it. I guess also when you are pushing the range you drop down to 65 or 55 mph where the aerodynamics aren't as big a factor as they are at 75 or 80 mph. (Yes, I've maxed my EV's out at 83 mph once, maybe twice. I also got a speeding ticket in my EV1 when I was going less than 80 mph.)
 
Some more interesting efficiency numbers from John Wayland's Silver Streak Honda Insight electric conversion to a 350+, maybe 450, mile range Electric Vehicle:
Considering the .25 cd aero capabilities of a stock Insight, its LRR tires mounted on ultra-light alloy wheels (identical tire and wheel size as the EV1), projected converted weight hundreds of lbs. lighter than an EV1, and the super efficient AC drive, I’m predicting an efficiency of 185 Wh per mile at 65 mph, or 386 miles @ 65 mph on level ground. As a comparison point, the EV1 was more aero at .19 cd but it was heavier – it achieved 167 Wh per mile at 65 mph. At 55 mph, Silver Streak’s efficiency should improve to about 160 Wh per mile, so a steady state 55 mph on level ground would give close to 450 miles. The 2723 lb. Tesla with its 53 kWh pack can do 245 miles per charge in spite of its so-so aero and 225 section width rear tires.
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=337
This time, it’s one of distance rather than ultimate acceleration. The challenge is simple and straight forward – travel from Portland, Oregon to Seattle, Washington and back on a single charge at the posted freeway speed limits in a converted modern production car for ~ 350 miles at 55-70 mph on the I-5 freeway system. ... Just shy of 1000 lbs. of these are earmarked for the Insight project. When completed, the pack will be a 318V, 225 ah, 71.5 kWh LiPol setup consisting of 258 cells in a 3P86S design employing Dow Kokam’s 75 ah high power cells.
 
Yesterday. I drove 86 miles had 23 miles left. All in Eco mode all in town mostly a surburban setting 40 mph and under. Car says 5.5 kwh.

It would be a real struggle to get significantly better than that. So others getti.g 141 miles and so on mist have a better battery than me
 
Back
Top