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Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:31 am
by edatoakrun
TonyWilliams wrote:Made my second trip to Julian...

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.
Now that you have made multiple trips proving the 50% rate of recovery of ascent energy on your range chart is way off, will you please correct it? It looks to me like you get close to the 80% reported by several others.

If I had seen your range chart, and believed it, I would probably not have purchased a LEAF, as I would have been mislead to believe it unsuited to my driving range requirements.

I also expect that if you try the same trip entirely in ECO, you will find that there are negligible improvement in efficiency (if any) from shifting into D and N. The longer drive, re-posted below, with similar (?) ascent/descent (how did you calculate your total?-the profile you posted does not seem to match 6,700 ft) was done entirely in ECO.
Several recent posts on this thread saying hills limit their range, suggest the same underestimate of energy ascent recovery, as is shown in the range chart. Most of the energy used in climbing, will be recovered, as long as you return to the same altitude you started from.

In fact, I think most all those who regularly drive their LEAFs with large ascents and descents, have found similar ratios of ascent energy recovery that I have, about 80%, rather than the 50% shown in the range chart...

My longest range drive, over 92 miles to just past VLBW, on a hot summer day averaging about 40 mph, was a two way trip on the road profile below, with the first few (left of profile) miles repeated several times at the end, for a total ascent/descent of between 5,000 and 5,500 ft...
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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=220" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:29 pm
by TonyWilliams
edatoakrun wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:Made my second trip to Julian...

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.
Now that you have made multiple trips proving the 50% rate of recovery of ascent energy on your range chart is way off, will you please correct it? It looks to me like you get close to the 80% reported by several others.

If I had seen your range chart, and believed it, I would probably not have purchased a LEAF, as I would have been mislead to believe it unsuited to my driving range requirements.

I also expect that if you try the same trip entirely in ECO, you will find that there are negligible improvement in efficiency (if any) from shifting into D and N. The longer drive, re-posted below, with similar (?) ascent/descent (how did you calculate your total?-the profile you posted does not seem to match 6,700 ft) was done entirely in ECO.
You're making a bunch of assumptions. First, this trip was not a data generating trip. Secondly, I did specifically >not< coast down like i did last time, and instead used regen and power (I constantly switch to ECO when there is a need for more regen without brake application... I prefer D mode for power application).

There is no good way to post facto try and accurately compare the two trips for the purpose of determining regen percent (at least to my satisfaction). We already know that it can be 0% with coasting in N or in either Eco or D with a full battery. We also know regen will never be close to 100%.

To figure our the parameters for regen on a range calculation beyond my mostly arbitrary 50%, I'm all ears. If your answer is just 80%, then we simply do not agree, and if my opinion, it is more wrong than a 50% for all scenarios.

Again, we have to establish the parameters to calculate it. We can measure with a Gid meter to get baseline data from test runs (there are definitely accuracy issues with this) but the more difficult part is organizing all the variables into a simple format.

PS: Almost forgot, both trips came up with substantially similar data outside the obvious battery capacity and heater issues associated with colder temps.

Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:25 pm
by edatoakrun
TonyWilliams wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:Made my second trip to Julian...

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.
Now that you have made multiple trips proving the 50% rate of recovery of ascent energy on your range chart is way off, will you please correct it? It looks to me like you get close to the 80% reported by several others.

If I had seen your range chart, and believed it, I would probably not have purchased a LEAF, as I would have been mislead to believe it unsuited to my driving range requirements.

I also expect that if you try the same trip entirely in ECO, you will find that there are negligible improvement in efficiency (if any) from shifting into D and N. The longer drive, re-posted below, with similar (?) ascent/descent (how did you calculate your total?-the profile you posted does not seem to match 6,700 ft) was done entirely in ECO.
You're making a bunch of assumptions. First, this trip was not a data generating trip. Secondly, I did specifically >not< coast down like i did last time, and instead used regen and power (I constantly switch to ECO when there is a need for more regen without brake application... I prefer D mode for power application).

There is no good way to post facto try and accurately compare the two trips for the purpose of determining regen percent (at least to my satisfaction). We already know that it can be 0% with coasting in N or in either Eco or D with a full battery. We also know regen will never be close to 100%.

To figure our the parameters for regen on a range calculation beyond my mostly arbitrary 50%, I'm all ears. If your answer is just 80%, then we simply do not agree., and if my opinion, more wrong than a simple 50%.

Again, we have to establish the parameters to calculate it. We can measure with a Gid meter to get baseline data from test runs (they are definitely accuracy issues with this) but the more difficult part is organizing all the variables into a simple format.

PS: Almost forgot, both trips came up with substantially similar data outside the obvious battery capacity and heater issues associated with colder temps.
"We also know regen will never be close to 100%."-BUT RECOVERY OF ASCENT ENERGY CAN BE.

This occurs every time you "coast" downhill, neither using energy, or receiving charge though regen, whether you are in D, N, or ECO.

And the blend of this 100% efficient recovery (nearly-since the LEAF's drivetrain efficiency is probably slightly lower, with the high kW use when climbing) of the potential energy that was stored in the ascent, and the far less efficient regen energy, has been close to 80% (when having a battery charge of 80% or lower) when calculating range, for all road conditions, that I have encountered, as it it also appears to be in the drives you report, using your own range chart as a baseline.

It has never been anywhere close to 50%, for me. Has anyone actually seen ascent energy recovery as determined by range, at that low rate, under any road conditions?

I get much better than that, even when I am at 100% charge, and cannot get any regen.

Would someone else care to intervene here?

I have been bringing up the same subject for months now, and can't think of any further ways to explain my point.

Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:35 pm
by derkraut
TonyWilliams wrote:Made my second trip to Julian, after a San Diego county snow storm. It was my Dad's 70th birthday, too, so to offset my green, zero carbon emission trip to Julian, we also flew the Piper Mailbu to Santa Catalina Island for lunch.

I used a bit more power on this trip, and had a bit less usable battery capacity with significantly lower ambient temps. Plus, more weight with 3 people vice just little 'ole me last summer, and my parents appreciated the heater!

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.


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Just "little 'ole me"? Tony....you are FUNNY! :lol:

Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:38 pm
by BLUEH20
It' s been a lot of years---got to ask---Is Dudleys Stone Oven Bakery still in operation--in the 1970's people, me included, would que up outside on Sunday mornings to purchase loaf's of their great breads.

Thanks for the memory trip!

Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:01 pm
by TonyWilliams
"We also know regen will never be close to 100%."-BUT RECOVERY OF ASCENT ENERGY CAN BE.

This occurs every time you "coast" downhill, neither using energy, or receiving charge though regen, whether you are in D, N, or ECO.
I think you're moving into something I do believe in!!!! There's hope!

How about we set up a simple non-GOM or CWP experiment. I have two long descents near my house. Speed, weight, and verticle decent profile seem like likely variables. Anything else? Oh ya, that pesky top of the charge. How do you want to account for that?

Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:39 am
by edatoakrun
TonyWilliams wrote: How about we set up a simple non-GOM or CWP experiment. I have two long descents near my house. Speed, weight, and verticle decent profile seem like likely variables. Anything else? Oh ya, that pesky top of the charge. How do you want to account for that?
This was one of the first things I did when I got my LEAF late May.

I have repeated it many times since, and got very close to 80%, on many different roads, and posted these results.

"Top of charge" is 100%. This variable exists for all other aspects of range estimation, so I don't understand why you believe that significant to this issue.

The significant variable you missed above is battery/driving temperature.

Driving the same road at the same weight eliminates those variables. Speed, temperature, and driving technique can never be exactly replicated, but by attempting consistency, you can get very useful approximations, from which a "rule of thumb", can be derived.

Each trip will vary from an average, of course. I wouldn't be surprised if, on average, any proportion from 75%-to 85%, might be more accurate, when more information is collected. 50% just does not bear any relationship to reality.

I do not understand why you, and others, do not make these simple observations, and instead prefer to accept a figure, "50%" pulled out of a bodily orifice.

Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:35 pm
by eHelmholtz
the winding roads from poway to julian are a lot fun to drive! i took this trip in an ICE based roadster previously but wanted a small taste of it in the LEAF. i went up scripps poway parkway then onto the 67 to Romana in the LEAF and back - it was a fun drive indeed! while, i didn't feel the connection to the road as i did with the roadster, the LEAF was, nevertheless, responsive and handled well around the winding bits of the roads. 50 miles total with not much juice left ;-); a DC charger in Santa Ysabel will make the julian trip trivial yet fun!

Re: Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:05 pm
by TonyWilliams
Rav4 EV in Julian. It was too easy to comment on much... just like driving a gas burner there and back:

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