WetEV
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Sat May 04, 2013 2:43 pm

LBW at 91.9 miles
5.7 miles/kWh (Dash)
100.4 miles on the odometer
Recharge according to L2 Blink home charger 21.86 kWh
Temperature in garage was around 55 F
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DaveEV
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Sat May 04, 2013 4:56 pm

VLBW (23 gid) to 80%, 4h4m, 15.23 kWh

Didn't charge from 80% to 100% this time, but the last 3 80-100% charges have been in the range of 3.6-4.0 kWh.

edatoakrun
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:02 am

Update on the recharge time results for my LEAF, now at ~20,000 miles, 26 months from production, and now under “85% capacity” as shown by the LEAF app:

Following 9/7/11 range/capacity test, to just past the VLBW, ~4 hours 25 minutes of recharge to reach “80%”.

Following the 9/8/12 range test ~4 hours and 16 minutes to reach 80% , and another one hour and 11 minutes to stop charging at “100%, 5 hours and 27 minutes total .

Following my 4/2/13 range test, it took ~4 hours and 14 minutes to “80%” (at considerably lower battery temperature).

Following 6/2/13/13 range test ~4 hours and 19 minutes to “80%”

Following 6/30/13 range test, ~4 hours and 18 minutes to “80%”.

Following 7/7/13 range test ~4 hours and 19 minutes to “80%”, and another one hour five minutes to stop charging at “100%”, 5 hours and 24 minutes total.

IMO, these recharge times from ~VLBW to “80%” seem consistent with my range tests, which have shown no significantly large losses of available battery capacity over the last ~22 months.


In addition to the very useful m/kWh at constant speed results for 2011 Nissan Leaf – VIN 0356, the total recharge times and kWh accepted are reported at:

Advanced Vehicle Testing – Baseline Testing Results

http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/fact2011nissanleaf.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13265" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think considering the total charge times from ~turtle to "100%" may also be very useful, as the recharge times correspond so closely to the kWh recharge capacities for 0356.

It looks to me like the taper charge period may be so consistent as to allow useful comparison of capacity by measuring time, which is much easier to do accurately than measuring kWh from the wall, at least as the inconsistent reports of metered results on this thread seem to suggest.

If comparing total charge time is valid, then My LEAF may have close to the same average available capacity that 0306 had when it was tested, though the multiple variables and the variation in LEAF 0356’s measured recharge capacity in kWh (the three recharges varying between 18.1 and 18.6 kWh) gives you an idea of the limited precision of any available battery capacity measurement.

Unless the charge from “turtle” to VLBW is at lower kW (anyone checked that?) it may reasonable to add ~25 minutes to my total charge times to account for the ~1.5 kWh below VLBW capacity that I did not use in any of my range tests, to extrapolate a charge time for a SOC range equivalent to that tested for 0356.

Compare my 5:27 total recharge time from 9/8/12, and the 5:24 total time from 7/7/13 minute recharge, add 25 minutes, then you can compare an extrapolated average time of ~ 5:51.

Adjust my times by less than 1% to reflect my slightly lower voltage (~238 V, as best as I can tell) then you get an adjusted time of ~5 hours and 48 minutes.

Very close to LEAF 0356’s 5:37, 5:45, and 5:52 recharge times from “low turtle” to “100% shown in the tests of 0356, averaging ~5:45 (recharged at similar temperatures).
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mwalsh
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:16 am

I didn't know this thread existed. I did a Turtle to 100%, measured by Kill-A-Watt, at the end of January:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 3&start=84" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

22.62kWh taken from the wall, with charging from Turtle taking 15h58m (19 hours indicated on the dash).
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edatoakrun
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:57 am

mwalsh wrote:I didn't know this thread existed. I did a Turtle to 100%, measured by Kill-A-Watt, at the end of January:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 3&start=84" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

22.62kWh taken from the wall, with charging from Turtle taking 15h58m (19 hours indicated on the dash).

~23 minutes longer than my last Winter L1 charge time.

But it would seem an anomaly that your Kill-A-Watt said you got only 0.62 kWh more than I did, for your "turtle" to ~VLBW capacity, rather than the ~1.5 additional kWh I'd expect.

From p 19 of this thread:
...for comparison:

Following 97.4 mile range test on 2/16/13, starting Odometer ~15,450 miles, where I got CW/nav screen report of of 15.8 kWh use from “100” to ~the VLBW, dash indicated “15 hours” recharge time to “80%”. test began with 4 temp bars, and went to 5 ~18 miles into the test, where it stayed to the end.

...Finished charge from “80%“ to "100%" 3 h 10 m (total charge time 15 h 35 min) 22.01 kWh total, showing 4 temp bars and at ~ 45 f ambient ...
Perhaps due to my (colder?) battery having one or all:

Temporarily lower capacity, higher resistance, or a longer period of tapered charge?
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edatoakrun
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:29 am

Another result since my 7/22 post above.
edatoakrun wrote:Update on the recharge time results for my LEAF, now at ~20,000 miles, 26 months from production, and now under “85% capacity” as shown by the LEAF app:

Following 9/7/11 range/capacity test, to just past the VLBW, ~4 hours 25 minutes of recharge to reach “80%”.

Following the 9/8/12 range test ~4 hours and 16 minutes to reach 80% , and another one hour and 11 minutes to stop charging at “100%, 5 hours and 27 minutes total .

Following my 4/2/13 range test, it took ~4 hours and 14 minutes to “80%” (at considerably lower battery temperature).

Following 6/2/13/13 range test ~4 hours and 19 minutes to “80%”

Following 6/30/13 range test, ~4 hours and 18 minutes to “80%”.

Following 7/7/13 range test ~4 hours and 19 minutes to “80%”, and another one hour five minutes to stop charging at “100%”, 5 hours and 24 minutes total.

Following 8/4/13 range test ~4 hours and 16 minutes to “80%”, and another one hour four minutes to stop charging at “100%”, 5 hours and 20 minutes total.


IMO, these recharge times from ~VLBW to “80%” seem consistent with my range tests, which have shown no significantly large losses of available battery capacity over the last ~22 months.


In addition to the very useful m/kWh at constant speed results for 2011 Nissan Leaf – VIN 0356, the total recharge times and kWh accepted are reported at:

Advanced Vehicle Testing – Baseline Testing Results

http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/fact2011nissanleaf.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13265" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think considering the total charge times from ~turtle to "100%" may also be very useful, as the recharge times correspond so closely to the kWh recharge capacities for 0356.

It looks to me like the taper charge period may be so consistent as to allow useful comparison of capacity by measuring time, which is much easier to do accurately than measuring kWh from the wall, at least as the inconsistent reports of metered results on this thread seem to suggest...

Unless the charge from “turtle” to VLBW is at lower kW (anyone checked that?) it may reasonable to add ~25 minutes to my total charge times to account for the ~1.5 kWh below VLBW capacity that I did not use in any of my range tests, to extrapolate a charge time for a SOC range equivalent to that tested for 0356.

Compare my 5:27 total recharge time from 9/8/12, and the 5:24 total time from 7/7/13 minute recharge, add 25 minutes, then you can compare an extrapolated average time of ~ 5:51.

Adjust my times by less than 1% to reflect my slightly lower voltage (~238 V, as best as I can tell) then you get an adjusted time of ~5 hours and 48 minutes.

Very close to LEAF 0356’s 5:37, 5:45, and 5:52 recharge times from “low turtle” to “100% shown in the tests of 0356, averaging ~5:45 (recharged at similar temperatures).
5/5/14-edit to remove erroneous comment on voltage adjustment
Last edited by edatoakrun on Mon May 05, 2014 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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camasleaf
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:25 pm

camasleaf wrote:
camasleaf wrote:Just finished charging turtle to 100% on my new Leaf now at 430 miles. The Blink reported 24.9 kWh in 6.44 hours. I will try to turtle the older Leaf tomorrow.
The older Leaf finished charging from turtle to 100%: 23.2 kWh in 6:14 hours. So after almost 23000 miles in 16 months the capacity dropped about 1.5 kWh or 7% (assumed 90% efficiency).
Now the old Leaf at 34000 miles GID around 247, AHr=57.11, (87.06%) Hlth 74.17 from turtle to 100% Blink reported 22.1 kWh; The new Leaf close to 11000 miles still holds at 277 GID.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:02 pm

camasleaf wrote: ...Now the old Leaf at 34000 miles GID around 247, AHr=57.11, (87.06%) Hlth 74.17 from turtle to 100% Blink reported 22.1 kWh...
Do you have the charge time?
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camasleaf
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:50 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
camasleaf wrote: ...Now the old Leaf at 34000 miles GID around 247, AHr=57.11, (87.06%) Hlth 74.17 from turtle to 100% Blink reported 22.1 kWh...
Do you have the charge time?
Charging time 6:05. Battery temp from around 66F at start to 70 at end.Cell voltage delta was 223 at turtle and around 22 mv at the end. I have a few leafspy screen captures.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 89000 miles 61%SOH 13.8kWh
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2014 Model S P85 77888 miles 256mile range
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edatoakrun
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Re: Collecting data:Off-the-wall power for turtle to 100% ch

Mon May 05, 2014 6:16 pm

Continuing from:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... start=6800" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
drees wrote:

Drained my car to turtle (5 GIDs) on a 80% charge (188 GIDs) driving 51.6 mi at 3.5 mi/kWh (About half surface streets, half freeway at ~70 mph). LBW came on a bit over 40 miles and VLBW came on around 48 miles. Pulled into garage with 12 GIDs and drained the rest using the heater/defroster on max. Turtle came on at 6 GIDs. Lowest cell-pair around 3.1V, average 3.3V, max 3.45V. Finishing battery temp around 90F, started the morning with the battery around 80F.

Charged to 80% immediately after that which took 4:18:35 drawing 16.157 kWh according to my Blink EVSE...
Not trying to cast doubt on the reliability of any Blink device, but...

If you have 240 V, shouldn’t the EVSE pull ~16.55 kWh over that period of time?

Is your voltage lower than 240?

For that matter, anyone seen any variation from 16 A (L2) for a 2011-12 LEAF charger?

I've been wasting my time keeping time records, if it is not a constant.
drees wrote:

I didn't charge all the way to 100% as I wasn't planning on going anywhere soon this morning, but my last five 80-100% charges in the last 3 months ought to be good enough to take an average. Here they are in descending order from most recent to oldest:
1:08 3.567 kWh
1:00 3.268 kWh
1:04 3.116 kWh
1:10 3.683 kWh
1:00 3.300 kWh

Average time was 64 minutes, average energy 3.39 kWh.

So we can safely assume a full charge would have taken about 5h 22m and drawn 19.5 kWh.

We know that a new LEAF will pull about 24.5-25.0 kWh from the wall. Mine pulls less than 20 kWh.

In conclusion, my current Ah reading of 53.6 is 81% of a new LEAF's ~66 Ah. My energy used to charge is about 78-80% of what a new LEAF pulls from the wall to charge from turtle to 100%. If anything, the car is over-estimating capacity, not under.
Were all the “80%” to “100%” sessions at ~the same high battery temperatures?

IMO, due to the imprecision of LBC instrumentation, the exact percentage of total battery capacity when the LBC determines every marked or set SOC (at least the ones I've seen, VLBW, LBW, "80%" and "100%") so the kWh accepted on any recharge between any two of these SOCs, as a percentage of total battery capacity, can probably vary significantly.

I believe this been shown, in my LEAF, by differences in both kWh charge accepted, and kWh discharge allowed, from VLBW to "100%" and back, even with near-identical battery temperatures when charging.

So I don't believe that you can reasonably expect to approximate capacity loss from any single charge session, or any single range test.

And trying to assemble a composite capacity with an average of previous sessions throws additional uncertainty into the question. You are, in effect, giving the LBC two chances to miscalculate the two charge-end SOCs, and while different LBC errors estimating "80%" and "100%" in two separate sessions could offset each other, they could also produce a higher cumulative error than you could get in a single charge event.

drees, I believe your LEAF has lost a significant amount of capacity, and mine has too.

As should be expected after ~3 years and ~27,000 miles.

I just think you are stretching to claim that your LBC's accuracy has been validated by what you have posted.

BTW, even if you can show that your:
drees wrote:

...own measurements of energy used to charge the car have directly correlated with the car's reported capacity loss...
The part of your statement I found without support was:
drees wrote:

...own measurements of energy used to charge the car have directly correlated with the car's reported capacity loss and so has everyone else's...
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